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Subject: Help me out with some combat hypotheticals rss

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Ben Stanley
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I anticipate writing a meaningful review for this game if I get a moment to do so in the next few days, and I love the components, the fast playtime, and the small, portable box.

The game seems to hit many of the right notes for me, but we were left a little perplexed by combat based just on the written rules.

So, let me ask my combat questions and maybe one or two others, just for good measure.

1. A revealed goblin token (no longer a tile) stands on revealed trap (spikes). The hero would like to move his rogue onto the trap to disable it. From a strict reading of just the rules, it sounds like that is allowed. It sounds like a warrior would slay the goblin if he moved there, but suffer damage from the trap, whereas a rogue would not slay the goblin but would remove the trap. And presumably, the Dungeon player would take a free attack against that rogue on the next turn.

Please confirm that understanding. I saw a rule question response that seemed to suggest that the rogue would take damage from the goblin by virtue of entering its space, but the rules leave some ambiguity as between monster tiles and actual monster tokens. I don't see anything in the actual rules that indicates a non-warrior player suffers from entering a monster TOKEN'S space (though clearly they do when entering a monster TILE space).

2. Confirm: heroes (only a warrior or hero with a one-time use sword artifact) slay monsters upon entering their space (either a monster TOKEN or TILE) on the hero player's turn, whereas monster TOKENs attack and do damage only on the Dungeon player's turn and either from on the same space or an orthogonally adjacent space) without costing an action point.

3. Confirm: (a) spending all action points is mandatory for both players and (b) the dungeon player may only move each monster one space (and/or make one free attack to a hero in the same or an orthogonally adjacent space. If yes to both, if the dungeon player has less than four monster tokens during the aggressive phase, must that player reveal enough tiles to equal four actions after any monster movements desired or possible? What happens when all the tiles have been revealed?

4. In the basic 2 player game, monster tokens are never on the board until the aggressive phase, right?

5. If five monsters are within striking distance (adjacent to or sharing space with heroes) at the start of the turn, all five could attack in that one turn since attacking is a free action?

6. Goblins can move diagonally, but they are still limited to attacking from the same or an ORTHOGONALLY adjacent space only, correct?

7. Just to confirm, poison gas cloud is NOT a trap and not something the rogue can remove, correct? There is no way to remove those tiles in the basic game (without expansion) other than by sacrificing one of the four heroes to die in it?

(I'll likely post more questions soon to supplement these)
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Michael Coe
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Hey Ben,

Thanks for the questions. You bring up some good points. Points that I could see others having questions about so I'd love to confirm them.

1. The Rogue could move onto the Trap Tile, take damage from the Goblin Token(3) and remove the Trap Tile from the board with no additional damage taken from the trap.

Assuming that was the 4th/final action for the Hero player, the Dungeon player could attack the Rogue on his turn with the Goblin (3) and this would kill the Rogue. The way to get a free attack with a Monster is to move the Monster. A Monster that remains still must spend an action to attack. Either way, the Dungeon player has to spend an action to attack the Rogue.

A Monster Token is a Monster Tile that can move. I apologize, the rules have a degree of assumption for that and it leads to some ambiguity.

2. Free Action is only listed in the rule specifically about Monsters moving onto a Hero square or a square adjacent to a Hero. Otherwise, it is treated as an action.

3. a) Yes, 4 actions are mandatory for both players.

The Hero player's exception to this is if he only has one Hero left in play.

The Dungeon Lord's exception to this is if all tiles are revealed and less than four Monsters remain in play. There will be many times where the Dungeon player is forced to reveal tiles because of this.

b) The Dungeon player may only move, attack, or move and attack once with each Monster.

If all tiles are revealed and fewer than four Monsters remain on the board the Dungeon player must take as many actions as are legal.

4. Correct, the Monster Tokens do not come into play until all tiles have been placed.

The expansion pack introduces aggressive Monsters who's tokens DO enter play during the passive phase, actions are spent on these Monsters at the cost of turning the dungeon aggressive later rather than sooner.

5. No, addressed above.

6. Correct, all Monsters attack orthogonally only.

The expansion introduces the Dragon who is the first Monster that can attack in any direction.

7. Yes. Correct.

Please feel free to post any and all questions. I will be active and involved in making sure to clear up any ambiguity the rules present.

Thanks again. I look forward to your review.
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Ben Stanley
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Thanks for the quick reply, Michael. That all makes sense. Here are a couple more questions:

8. If a warrior needs to kill a monster to clear a path for the rogue to reach a final treasure, but the monster is standing on a revealed trap tile that would kill the warrior, I assume the warrior can move onto the space, killing the monster before dying to the trap. Correct?

9. The shifting floor tiles are the only tiles where it seems like orientation of the tile matters. Is that right? I assume the dungeon player (or random chance in the solo game) sets the orientation when placed, and either player must be careful not to change the orientation when the tile is revealed. Is that right, or does the revealing player get to set the orientation of those tiles?

Thanks again for all the help and the wonderful game.
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Michael Coe
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Hey Ben,

8. Correct, the Monster would be addressed first and then the trap. Monster and Warrior die, path is open for the Rogue.

9. Yes, the Shifting floor is the only tile that orientation matters. The orientation of the tile is set by the Dungeon player, so the Hero player needs to be aware to not FLIP/TURN the tile. Flipping the tile from any direction will not change the intended orientation but doing a FLIP/TURN combo will.

I'm glad to hear you are enjoying the game! I'm also glad I could help clarify any questions. Let me know if you have more. =)
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Chris Ingersoll
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Is the Dungeon player allowed to look at unrevealed tiles?
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Michael Coe
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Hey Chris,

No he is not. He will have to rely on his memory.
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Dan Long
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OK, got my game in the mail Wednesday.

I am playing solo and I am clearly not understanding some things about combat.



How do the heroes attack the monsters, and what happens?

The warrior has a special, "slay monsters without taking damage, by moving onto their square".

Can the warrior also auto-kill a monster that is already in the warrior's square? Does the warrior take damage?

Monsters can attack into orthogonally adjacent squares without moving into the square. Can the warrior auto-kill adjacent monsters without moving onto their square?

Can the other heroes kill monsters? How?
Do the other heroes have to be on the monster's square to attack the monster?
If they move onto a monster's square, do they take damage?
If they move onto a monster's square, does this include an attack on the monster?


Are monsters consumed/sacrificed when they make an attack? Or do they stay in play until killed by the heroes?


Goblins can move diagonally. Can they attack on the diagonal?


Playing solo, each hero gets two actions. Do the heroes have to take their actions together, sequentially, or can the actions be broken up?

By breaking up the actions, for example, can the wizard reveal a tile, the cleric move onto the revealed tile, the rogue move into the cleric's old tile, the cleric heal the rogue, and the wizard move into the rogue's old tile?

TIA
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Michael Coe
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Hey Dan,

I'd be glad to clarify your questions. My my answers below.


How do the heroes attack the monsters, and what happens?
The Warrior or a Hero with a one-time use sword, would need move onto a square occupied by a Monster (tile or token) at that point at the attack is automatic, the Monster is slain and removed from the game. If killed by a Hero with a sword, the sword is discarded.

Can the warrior also auto-kill a monster that is already in the warrior's square? Does the warrior take damage?
If the Warrior began the turn with a Monster already in his square, an action would need to be spent to kill that Monster (similar to how the Dungeon Lord would spend an action for a Monster remaining in place to attack a Hero).

No, the Warrior never takes damage upon attacking. He would only take damage from a Monster when a Monster attacks him.


Monsters can attack into orthogonally adjacent squares without moving into the square. Can the warrior auto-kill adjacent monsters without moving onto their square?
No. The Warrior MUST enter a Monsters square to attack.

Can the other heroes kill monsters? How?
Yes, only if they have a one-time use sword.


Do the other heroes have to be on the monster's square to attack the monster?
Yes, like the Warrior a Hero would need to enter the square.

If they move onto a monster's square, do they take damage?
Yes, unless they are equipped to kill it, then no. They would only take damage if the Monster isn't killed.

If they move onto a monster's square, does this include an attack on the monster?
Yes, if equipped to kill a Monster, the attack does not cost an additional action.


Are monsters consumed/sacrificed when they make an attack? Or do they stay in play until killed by the heroes?
No, they stay in play until killed.

Goblins can move diagonally. Can they attack on the diagonal?
No. All Monsters attack orthogonally. The expansion's Dragon is the only Monster, so far, that can attack diagonally.

Playing solo, each hero gets two actions. Do the heroes have to take their actions together, sequentially, or can the actions be broken up?
The actions can be broken up.

By breaking up the actions, for example, can the wizard reveal a tile, the cleric move onto the revealed tile, the rogue move into the cleric's old tile, the cleric heal
Yes, that would be fine.

Hope that helps! Enjoy the game!
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Dan Long
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Excellent. This was very helpful. Thanks!

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Ben Stanley
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mgcoe wrote:
How do the heroes attack the monsters, and what happens?
The Warrior or a Hero with a one-time use sword, would need move onto a square occupied by a Monster (tile or token) at that point at the attack is automatic, the Monster is slain and removed from the game. If killed by a Hero with a sword, the sword is not discarded.
I thought I had everything figured out now, but this first answer confuses me: you are both explicit that the sword is one-time use and explicit that it is NOT discarded after use. I am going to assume you made an error in typing and meant to say the sword IS discarded after use (which is how we have played).
 
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Michael Coe
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Good catch. The Sword IS discarded after use. As all items are.

I edited my typo in the post to reflect the proper ruling.
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John Rudd
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I asked this in the "DH Advanced" kickstarter update (the most recent one). It seems that a previous question answers it, but you need to make this more explicit in the 2nd printing of the rules. And, really, you shouldn't wait for a second printing: you should start inserting this extra information into the existing games before you ship the ones you haven't shipped yet, and you should find a way to get the information to everyone who already bought it.

But, can heroes, other than the Warrior, and without having the Sword, make attacks?

The rules-as-written aren't very clear about this point (in fact, they're completely silent about it):

1) Only the Warrior, or a Hero with the Sword, can kill Monsters.
2) All monsters are defeated with a single attack.

Without those two things, I think the rules-as-written aren't playable (not without forcing your customers to make assumptions -- and they could just as equally have assumed that the other heroes CAN attack/kill, they just take damage when they do so ... plus, making your customers bear the burden of such assumptions isn't really appropriate).

Of lesser importance is: making it more explicit that an aggressive monster's attack does as much damage as a hero stepping onto the monster's tile. That's an easy assumption, but, again, in rules-as-written, you're forcing your customers to make an assumption because the rules are completely silent about it.
 
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Michael Coe
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Hey John,

I just wanted make sure to address your concern here as well so below is a copy/paste from the DH Advanced update:

"@John - I finally have a moment to address your concern, thanks for your patience. I'm glad you were able to find some answers to your questions in the meantime.

I'm sorry to hear that the rules left you with so many questions. Always feel free to ask any questions you have and I will make sure to answer them, usually within 24 hours.

I understand where you are coming from and why it is frustrating.
Rules are read differently by each and every person. Sometimes we bring our own assumptions to rules when reading them. It's common in dungeon games that every kind of hero can attack in some way so it's easy to want to apply that to Dungeon Heroes and then be frustrated when it's not addressed explicitly.

Dungeon Heroes was voted most anticipated abstract strategy on BGG for 2013. This is because it is so streamlined.

Let's imagine Dungeon Heroes as truly abstract, void of all theme. The warrior is a red square, the rogue is the black star, the wizard is a blue triangle, the cleric is a white circle and the monsters are different colored cylinders. Each of the four shapes player 1 uses (the hero player) can only do 2 things, move and/or break one rule. Instead of listing all the rules that each shape CAN and CANNOT break, I would just list the rules that they CAN break. If it is not listed, they can't do it.

At this point, the rules that are in the boxes are what they are. I can however, make myself widely available to answer any and all questions to help bridge the gap. That is exactly what I will do.

The rules passed the blind play testing very well and have been well received by many players but they have brought up some questions and concerns with others.

Perfect rules leave no stone unturned for anyone and these rules seem to have left a little to be desired by some players and for that I'm sorry.

Lastly, a monster is a monster. Meaning the skeleton is the skeleton whether it is a tile or a figure. The only difference is that the Dungeon Lord can assign actions to figures. Being that the (figure) phase is called the aggressive phase it leaves little to assume that monsters will do damage as figures in this phase and since only one damage is notated for a monster than that must be the damage they do.

Myself and many others have worked very hard at making sure that we delivered a high quality product that exceeds backers expectations, not just in value but in game play and experience. I'm very sorry that you are not entirely satisfied with the how the rules were written. If there is anything I can do for you please write me at michael@gamelyngames.com and I will do what I can to make this right for you.

Sincerely,

Michael Coe"

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John Rudd
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mgcoe wrote:

At this point, the rules that are in the boxes are what they are. I can however, make myself widely available to answer any and all questions to help bridge the gap. That is exactly what I will do.

Thanks for your responses!

I understand that the rules in the box are set. But that doesn't mean there's no options for the rules themselves (don't get me wrong, answering questions is a great thing, and more than some game designers do ... I'm just saying, there are some other options as well).

I think it might be useful to:

a) come up with an errata sheet (even if it's just printed on regular paper) to insert into boxes that haven't been assembled and/or sealed yet. (though, I understand that some packaging services charge by the number of "inserts", so I'm not sure how/if that affects your costs)

b) if you can't put errata into future boxes, then make an errata sheet available for download (though, that's somewhat mitigated by item C, below).

c) revise the rules PDF that's available for free download, so that it includes whatever clarifications we're bringing to light.

d) use that revised PDF in whatever "second edition" or second print-run you end up doing.
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Michael Coe
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Hey John,

You are absolutely right. C and D are very good options. I'd like to let things take their natural course for a little bit and see how the masses are understanding the rules. I will continue to make myself available and come a point, if need be, I will put out a v1.1 of the rules etc.

I'm certainly not blind to some of the confusion being caused, I will be paying full attention and I will make sure to do what is necessary for the better of the game and the players experiencing it.

Thanks for your involvement John. It's good to have dedicated KS backers who want to get involved and help.
 
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Jason Fordham
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Rules are so difficult to perfect and streamline! ESPECIALLY to streamline.

We played tonight. We were at first confused why Attacking was not "covered," but quickly deduced that the Warrior is your main attacker and the other heroes have OTHER useful skills for you to exploit until they pick up a sword.

In other words, we figured it out, and, maybe while we should not have HAD to on our own, it only took thirty seconds.

Either way, great, fun, beautiful game!

Hey, Michael, why is there one Treasure tile that isn't hidden? Balance? Future expansion reasons? Other? Just curious!

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Michael Coe
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Hey Jason,

you are so right, rules are very difficult to perfect. I hope that my availability to answer any questions has at least made up for some of the ambiguities in the rules.

it really pleases me to hear that you are enjoying the game and love the components.

the reason for the visible treasure is to give the hero party something to go for early on in the passive phase when there are not very many tiles out. it also gives the dungeon lord something to protect early on. To sum it up it gives both players some direction early on.
 
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Jason Fordham
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mgcoe wrote:
Hey Jason,

you are so right, rules are very difficult to perfect. I hope that my availability to answer any questions has at least made up for some of the ambiguities in the rules.

it really pleases me to hear that you are enjoying the game and love the components.

the reason for the visible treasure is to give the hero party something to go for early on in the passive phase when there are not very many tiles out. it also gives the dungeon lord something to protect early on. To sum it up it gives both players some direction early on.
That makes sense!

You've been VERY responsive and quick with your answers!

Will play an expansion soon; which is best to add-in first? Either?
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Michael Coe
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Yeah, either expansion is fine to try first. Eventually you should give it a whirl with both expansions at the same time! That makes for a crazy game!
 
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