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Subject: The world needs more dice, not less. rss

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Chris R.
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I'M GLAD I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE THAT FEELS THIS WAY!

Two of my three least favorite traditional board games using their current rules are Dungeon Twister and Lord of the Rings: The Confrontation ... because the combat systems are IDOITIC!!!

I usually use Lord of the Rings: The Confrontation as my typical example. Aragorn has to remember to attack the evil foe with a gentle artistic tap, barely breaking the skin (ak with 1 "K") because in a far off lands Legalos will need to employ a medium-sized attack (akkk with 3 "K"s) while Frodo must be protected at all costs and must call upon the power of all the gods of creation and forces of good to pull out the special Balrog-sized thrust (akkkkk with 5 "K") that he has been secretly concealing in his trousers. (Damn, that Hobbit has really nice adrenal glands along with a lightsaber and bazooka!) The entire experience makes me want to go AKKKKKKKKKK (with 10 "K"s).

This could be an interesting mechanic for some type of abtract game or some type of game that uses a power supply or supply lines, but using it for combat is the stupidest thing I could ever imagine.

However, for Dungeon Twister I think a D6 would be way too powerful. I was thinking that the "addition die" should be a D3 or D4. Perhaps a D4 for the champion and a D3 for the challenging player.

Things often go wrong in combat. Dice are a great way to simulate that. People throw around the term "dicefest" like it's an insult. Unless you have magic dice or incredible luck, the percentages balance out over time. Some of my favorite games like Titan and Wizards Kings use lots of dice. Dice are also a great way to allow a younger or less experience player the chance to humiliate the more experienced player. That's always fun.

A game like Stratego "might" be worth playing with a dice-adition variant. The world needs more dice, not less.
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David desJardins
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Just because you don't like something doesn't make it IDOITIC. Or IDITOIC. Or even IDTICIO.
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Chris R.
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Do you use little cards with numbers when playing chess?
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Justin
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sikeospi wrote:
Do you use little cards with numbers when playing chess?


SNAP!
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Chris
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sikeospi wrote:
Do you use little cards with numbers when playing chess?


Burn! laugh

Well, with an attitude like that, I don't think they'll be inviting you to their wine and cheese parties any more. That's okay, I'm with you. I'd rather play a game of War of the Ring, guzzle beer, and roll buckets o' dice!
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Fred Methot
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You mean the AMERICANS need more dice!

You fail to realize that this is an European game and dice aren't very populare oversea, contrary to the US games where if you don't roll 15 dice per round, getting completly random results, its considered boring...

Now, as said above, the fact that you don't like the combat system of DT doesn't make it idiotic at all.

Personally I think its a very good system, removing most of the randomness from a dice system. You have to think and use your combat card wisely.
I do like dice system, as well... In Descent, I think its very appropriate, but I don't see it fit in DT.

I don't see the link between DT and chess though, sorry, but I don't roll dice in a game of chess either and I know the movement of my pieces isn't driven by a random dice result.

If anything, the combat card system reminds me of poker. I see it as a kind of gamble and strategic bluff.

My 0.02.
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David Tolin
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I have no idea why a new thread was created for this topic when there's already an active thread discussing it, but...

DT's high rating seems to indicate most people like it just the way it is. I agree.
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David desJardins
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Capitaine Grappin wrote:
When you loose, it can be only be a strategic error, not a dice roll, so you just can blame yourself, that is what make DT a great game and not a simple dicefest.


This part is wrong. Dungeon Twister is not like Chess, where if you lose it always means you made a mistake. It's like Rock-Scissors-Paper: when two players make decisions simultaneously, you can't always win even if you play perfectly. Sometimes you will just be unlucky because your decisions happened to match up badly with what the other player did. This doesn't imply that you made a mistake.
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David desJardins
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Capitaine Grappin wrote:
I never blame luck after a defeat.


So what? The truth is the truth, whether or not you choose to recognize it.

You don't have good enough cards to win every battle for sure. If every time you guess to play a lower card, your opponent guesses exactly what you're doing and plays exactly high enough a card to win, then you're going to lose the game (assuming competent play on both sides). To call every such decision a "mistake" is silly. You could have played a higher card on that battle and a lower card on a different battle, and that could just as easily have been a "mistake" if your opponent had guessed differently.
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David desJardins
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Capitaine Grappin wrote:
But the battle cards are based upon strategy and bluff by my book, call it silly if that amuses you.


Whether you call it "bluff" or "luck", the meaning is the same: you can play perfectly and still lose. This is different from chess, where you can't lose if you play perfectly (if both sides play perfectly the game is a draw).

If you still think that you can only lose if you make a mistake, try playing a game where your opponent always gets to choose his battle card after you reveal yours. You'll lose virtually every time. Similarly, if your opponent is lucky enough to always guess the right card to respond to your play, you'll lose regardless of what you do. No skill can overcome that lucky opponent.
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howl hollow howl
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Capitaine Grappin wrote:

Actually, there is 2 points involving luck for me.

1 - The library, with the 2 random scrolls
2 - Shadow tiles in Power of Darkness

Some games were significantly issues by thoses two elements of randomness.


I don't have experience with these later expansions, but, even (especially?) in the base set, tile layout can be a significant luck factor. Consider the following layout:

A1-A2
B1-C1
C2-D1
B2-D2

The player approaching from the bottom can easily lockup the C1/D1 border, forcing the opponent to approach from B1/C2. However, they can always open up C1/D1 when conditions are favorable.

- d
 
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David desJardins
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Capitaine Grappin wrote:
I never attack if I know I have a chance to loose


I find this hard to believe. When attacking, you always play a high enough card to guarantee a win in battle (or at least a tie)? So your opponents, knowing that, can always play their 0 on defense? I think that being so predictable is very inferior.
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howl hollow howl
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Capitaine Grappin wrote:

Tiles layout just change the strategy, adaptation is necessary. If you want the player to force the opponent to approach, he can choose to advance or not.


Yes, most things that are random usually force players to adapt to the new situation and perhaps change strategy. Also, most things that are random tend to benefit one player over another. This what I call "luck".

If the unfortunate player chooses not to advance, the favored player can advance on either of the fronts as it best benefits him. At this point, I believe that it is always favorable in Dungeon Twister to initiate combat on your defined terms; otherwise, the game would reach stalemate too often.

- d
 
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Steve Hope
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DaviddesJ wrote:
This is different from chess, where you can't lose if you play perfectly (if both sides play perfectly the game is a draw).


Is this a known fact? Generally accepted wisdom? Or an educated guess?
 
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David desJardins
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stephenhope wrote:
Is this a known fact? Generally accepted wisdom? Or an educated guess?


That a single chess game is a draw with best play is "generally accepted wisdom".

But, if you want to completely eliminate luck from chess, you would play two games (switching between White and Black), and combine the results. And the combined result of the match is definitely a draw with best play: this is no longer just "generally accepted wisdom" but a "known fact".
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David desJardins
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Capitaine Grappin wrote:
Sometimes I lose on purpose, it can be an advantage, and sometime I bid, depending of the importance of the battle, I repeat it since you obviously didn't read entirely my last post.


I'm sure that I read that you never attack if you might lose. But it seems that you didn't really mean it. I didn't realize that the rest of the post was supposed to contradict what you first said.

This argument is getting stupid so I'll drop it. I don't think you understand or play the game very well at all, and I'm sure you think the same of me.
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Olivier Lamontagne
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Edit : Deleted all coments, this thread being pointless
 
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Andreas
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I am quite sure, that Grappin understands and plays the game MUCH better than you do...
I thinmk that his way of doing combat is the perfect way in DT...
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David desJardins
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leberegel wrote:
I am quite sure, that Grappin understands and plays the game MUCH better than you do...


I'm sure that Grappin plays the game better than I do; I've only played a few times.

I'm also sure that I understand the theory of the game better than he does. It's absolutely clear that sometimes you lose through being unlucky and picking the wrong combat card to match against your opponent's card. To say that the outcome is only determined by skill is just not reasonable (unless the skill disparity is so great that the game is not even interesting).
 
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Mark McEvoy
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In a game to 5, I've found battles are usually a bit of a 'cold war' effect - nobody engages in any battle except those they know they can win. And they spend as large a card as required to ensure that. If one plays a variant that goes to 7 or 8 points I could see card economy becoming so crucial that you'd start taking rock-paper-scissors chances to try to preserve your high cards which you'd need in lategame... but from what I've played and what I've seen a game to 5 doesn't really lend well to this. In a game to 5, one's usually better served to avoid combat entirely (excepting guaranteed winners, which are usually so crucial, and the game so close to over, that you're not taking chances) and try to win 'the footrace'.
 
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Eric Franklin
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thatmarkguy wrote:
In a game to 5, I've found battles are usually a bit of a 'cold war' effect - nobody engages in any battle except those they know they can win. And they spend as large a card as required to ensure that. If one plays a variant that goes to 7 or 8 points I could see card economy becoming so crucial that you'd start taking rock-paper-scissors chances to try to preserve your high cards which you'd need in lategame... but from what I've played and what I've seen a game to 5 doesn't really lend well to this. In a game to 5, one's usually better served to avoid combat entirely (excepting guaranteed winners, which are usually so crucial, and the game so close to over, that you're not taking chances) and try to win 'the footrace'.


Depends on which expansion(s) you're using. Dungeon Twister: Mercenaries, for example, is all about managing combat to your advantage. Even the rooms are shaped so as to make combat nearly inevitable.

In the base set, I've seen both the Hit and the Run used effectively.

With Dungeon Twister: Paladins & Dragons, the Weapon Master makes the Hit more viable and the card economy comes into play a bit more heavily when she's in play.

Part of the game is knowing how important a given character is to your opponent's strategy. My Thief, for example, is essential to me. When she's defending, I will FREQUENTLY throw my high cards to keep her alive. My Troll will usually only throw a 0 in Defense and will regenerate the next turn. My regular opponents are aware of this and have adjusted their strategies accordingly.

Eric
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Russ Williams
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sikeospi wrote:
This could be an interesting mechanic for some type of abtract game or some type of game that uses a power supply or supply lines, but using it for combat is the stupidest thing I could ever imagine.


Yeah, it's too bad - this really ruins what would otherwise be a very accurate simulation of the realities of combat between two groups of adventurers teleported into a magical dungeon full of treasure by an evil omnipotent wizard.

Instead it's like it's just some kind of strategy game or something.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
I find this hard to believe. When attacking, you always play a high enough card to guarantee a win in battle (or at least a tie)? So your opponents, knowing that, can always play their 0 on defense? I think that being so predictable is very inferior.


Think what you want, it is a very frequent strategy. Some players bluff, other don't. The most gifted players I have met in tournament (and I have met a LOT of them) usually don't bluff, since there is very little need to do so, and since it is potentially very dangerous. It's not that uncommon to see a +6 combat card played in defense.

In a typical game of DT, you will try to avoid to count on more than one victory point through combat. There are a very high number of other means to kill the ennemy and score VP without depleting you combat cards, and once you have scored 3 VP, you can usually score the other 2 quite easily through a good old fashioned running.
 
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DaviddesJ wrote:
I'm also sure that I understand the theory of the game better than he does. It's absolutely clear that sometimes you lose through being unlucky and picking the wrong combat card to match against your opponent's card. To say that the outcome is only determined by skill is just not reasonable (unless the skill disparity is so great that the game is not even interesting).


There is no luck involved in your example. You pick the combat card, so if you are the attacker and that you have a good memory, you can calculate the card you need to play to beat your opponent. If you deliberately choose one card that can potentially make you loose the combat, then you are taking chances, but IT'S YOUR TACTICAL CHOICE to take that chance. You can very well do it because the situation allows you to easily prevent further problem to your character if he is hurt, or simply because you're reckless and you like to play that way, or even because you actually WANT to loose the combat (it happens). Anyway, you CONTROL the outcome, so there is absolutely no chance involved. The cards are just another resource you need to manage carefully in order to win the game.
 
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Douglas Buel
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sikeospi wrote:
This could be an interesting mechanic for some type of abtract game


Lord of the Rings Confrontation is some type of abstract game.
 
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