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Subject: The people of the Book, are they primative barbarians? rss

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Boaty McBoatface
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It has been suggested that a rather silly and extreme version of a reasonable idea be posted elsewhere, rather then continue to derail another thread. So for you edification I present this.

The argument goes

(sensible version) The people who wrote the bible were primitive tribesmen who wrote a book relevant to them (and their world).

So where the Jews primitive tribesmen?

(silly version) All the peoples of the book are savage barbarians.

Are Jews, Christians and Muslims savage barbarians (using the modern usage of the term)?

 
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I wouldn't say they were primitive in the stereotypical sense, they had cities and agriculture fwiw. But, they did live in times without many of the tools/technology/medicine that make live easier like we do, so a harsh life leads to harsh realities and their world view (and God view) reflects that. I would say that they were undergoing the growing pains of their culture having left the primitive nomad lifestyle behind. That's just my impression and I am by no means a history scholar.
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Not really sure what we are doing but I'll take a kick of the ball.

Pretty much all religious books are set within contexts of time and people they were written by. Many of the things that the god(s) were saying were already well established within the respective societies' cultural and moral norms.

Both primitive and/or savages are unhelpful, subjective and relatives terms. In time our lifestyles will likely be viewed as primitive and even, hopefully, savage when it comes to our use of violence and destruction of our own environment.

In reference to the Bible, Koran and, for my own ease of use, Torah:

Having the time and skills to write such a document suggest that the individuals who did so were in the top quartile of those around. In hindsight we may view these people as primitive but they were likely far more advanced and able than their kin. (Clearly though plenty of theologists and believers think that this information was carried for generations as spoken word before anyone documented it.)
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The people who wrote the book were primitive compared to nowadays. The idea in the book were fiction, with a handful of references to real life people or places. Magic people in it are fiction as well, obviously.

I don't know what the problem is. You are trying to extrapolate more from the simple sentence than there was.

Additionally, my thoughts(and not the thoughts of the op of it necessarily) are that people who believe in the fairy tales concocted by these primitives as some kind of supreme being in this day and age are fools... fools that use it as justification to hate, oppress, and kill others.
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monkeyhandz wrote:
Not really sure what we are doing but I'll take a kick of the ball.

Pretty much all religious books are set within contexts of time and people they were written by. Many of the things that the god(s) were saying were already well established within the respective societies' cultural and moral norms.

Both primitive and/or savages are unhelpful, subjective and relatives terms. In time our lifestyles will likely be viewed as primitive and even, hopefully, savage when it comes to our use of violence and destruction of our own environment.

In reference to the Bible, Koran and, for my own ease of use, Torah:

Having the time and skills to write such a document suggest that the individuals who did so were in the top quartile of those around. In hindsight we may view these people as primitive but they were likely far more advanced and able than their kin. (Clearly though plenty of theologists and believers think that this information was carried for generations as spoken word before anyone documented it.)
At the time it was written there were in fact a number of very ancient and sophisticated civilizations around. Moreover it has been (to my mind rather convincingly argued) that much of the bible was plagiarized from the writings of far more sophisticated cultures.
 
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shadow9d9 wrote:
The people who wrote the book were primitive compared to nowadays. The idea in the book were fiction, with a handful of references to real life people or places. Magic people in it are fiction as well, obviously.

I don't know what the problem is. You are trying to extrapolate more from the simple sentence than there was.

Additionally, my thoughts(and not the thoughts of the op of it necessarily) are that people who believe in the fairy tales concocted by these primitives as some kind of supreme being in this day and age are fools... fools that use it as justification to hate, oppress, and kill others.
That is why I put it in the most basic terms. To allow for a discussion of what you wrote (rather then what people think you wrote).
 
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slatersteven wrote:
monkeyhandz wrote:

Having the time and skills to write such a document suggest that the individuals who did so were in the top quartile of those around. In hindsight we may view these people as primitive but they were likely far more advanced and able than their kin.
At the time it was written there were in fact a number of very ancient and sophisticated civilizations around. Moreover it has been (to my mind rather convincingly argued) that much of the bible was plagiarized from the writings of far more sophisticated cultures.
Sure...

Forgive me Steven I don't quite follow how this relates to what I've said?

I'll happily agree that elements of many key religious books could be based upon 'plagiarism' or at least borrowing from other religious and cultural texts and ideas, I'm also fine with the idea that the civilisations that developed our big world religions were not necessarily the most developed in the region. This in itself doesn't make these people primitive or savage.
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pointless fucking thread.
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Fwing wrote:
pointless fucking thread.
Well hopefully it will serve as a pressure valve to diffuse a pointless argument on another thread.
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"The people who wrote the bible were primitive tribesmen who wrote a book relevant to them (and their world). "

The people who follow any of those books as any version of reality remain savage primitive tribesmen, with trappings of technology barely under their "control".

"Those books" are any of the centuries old books that provide any answers beyond what current humans are capable of.

Almost by definition.
 
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barrel of snakes right here!!

were the people around at the time of writing/plagurising primative tribesmen?

well by todays standards then yes.. but why the hell are we trying to compare a 2000yr passed culture based on todays standards? thats crazy. by todays standards people in the 18th century were primitive, just like in 500 years we will probably be seen as primitive.

someone in the thread that this one was born out of pointed out that 'primative' is often seen as a derogatory word.. so what? so the people who were about in those days were arseholes, there are plenty of arseholes about now as well.. by the standards of their day those people were not arseholes so they need to be given a bit of slack for that. those arses are what we came out of and whilst they had some pretty horrific ideas and principles, development had to start somewhere and go through some rough patches.. we are evidently in one of those shit-storms right now.

what this has sprung from is someone asking if modern morals should be taken from a long long out of date book... i am sure at the time that book was great and the center of morality; does that mean it should be held as such now?

well i would say no. whilst there are some good points in there, there are also so hideous points that i really would not want society based on.

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monkeyhandz wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
monkeyhandz wrote:

Having the time and skills to write such a document suggest that the individuals who did so were in the top quartile of those around. In hindsight we may view these people as primitive but they were likely far more advanced and able than their kin.
At the time it was written there were in fact a number of very ancient and sophisticated civilizations around. Moreover it has been (to my mind rather convincingly argued) that much of the bible was plagiarized from the writings of far more sophisticated cultures.
Sure...

Forgive me Steven I don't quite follow how this relates to what I've said?

I'll happily agree that elements of many key religious books could be based upon 'plagiarism' or at least borrowing from other religious and cultural texts and ideas, I'm also fine with the idea that the civilisations that developed our big world religions were not necessarily the most developed in the region. This in itself doesn't make these people primitive or savage.
True, but I was responding to your specific claim that they were more sophisticated then their kin. I would agree that not being as advanced or sophisticated (as say Greece) as their neighbors does not make them savage or barbaric (though there may be an argument for primitive, if they were not as sophisticated or advanced).
 
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Fwing wrote:
pointless fucking thread.
Cry more.
 
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shadow9d9 wrote:
Fwing wrote:
pointless fucking thread.
Cry more.
Are you trying to antagonize people?
 
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femgoth wrote:
barrel of snakes right here!!

were the people around at the time of writing/plagurising primative tribesmen?

well by todays standards then yes.. but why the hell are we trying to compare a 2000yr passed culture based on todays standards? thats crazy. by todays standards people in the 18th century were primitive, just like in 500 years we will probably be seen as primitive.

someone in the thread that this one was born out of pointed out that 'primative' is often seen as a derogatory word.. so what? so the people who were about in those days were arseholes, there are plenty of arseholes about now as well.. by the standards of their day those people were not arseholes so they need to be given a bit of slack for that. those arses are what we came out of and whilst they had some pretty horrific ideas and principles, development had to start somewhere and go through some rough patches.. we are evidently in one of those shit-storms right now.

what this has sprung from is someone asking if modern morals should be taken from a long long out of date book... i am sure at the time that book was great and the center of morality; does that mean it should be held as such now?

well i would say no. whilst there are some good points in there, there are also so hideous points that i really would not want society based on.

We compare it to today's standards because the magic men and ideas in these books are worshiped as the WORD OF A MAGIC SKY WIZARD WRITTEN BY THESE PRIMITIVE PEOPLE!
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slatersteven wrote:
shadow9d9 wrote:
Fwing wrote:
pointless fucking thread.
Cry more.
Are you trying to antagonize people?
His response was crying... I was simply pointing out that crying is ok, but doesn't add much.
 
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shadow9d9 wrote:
femgoth wrote:
barrel of snakes right here!!

were the people around at the time of writing/plagurising primative tribesmen?

well by todays standards then yes.. but why the hell are we trying to compare a 2000yr passed culture based on todays standards? thats crazy. by todays standards people in the 18th century were primitive, just like in 500 years we will probably be seen as primitive.

someone in the thread that this one was born out of pointed out that 'primative' is often seen as a derogatory word.. so what? so the people who were about in those days were arseholes, there are plenty of arseholes about now as well.. by the standards of their day those people were not arseholes so they need to be given a bit of slack for that. those arses are what we came out of and whilst they had some pretty horrific ideas and principles, development had to start somewhere and go through some rough patches.. we are evidently in one of those shit-storms right now.

what this has sprung from is someone asking if modern morals should be taken from a long long out of date book... i am sure at the time that book was great and the center of morality; does that mean it should be held as such now?

well i would say no. whilst there are some good points in there, there are also so hideous points that i really would not want society based on.

We compare it to today's standards because the magic men and ideas in these books are worshiped as the WORD OF A MAGIC SKY WIZARD WRITTEN BY THESE PRIMITIVE PEOPLE!
so what? people believe in all sorts of shit. i couldnt give a rats ass if people claim it was written by a volcano.. it was indicative of the morals and beliefs of the day.. we know we have moved on from that..
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femgoth wrote:
shadow9d9 wrote:
femgoth wrote:
barrel of snakes right here!!

were the people around at the time of writing/plagurising primative tribesmen?

well by todays standards then yes.. but why the hell are we trying to compare a 2000yr passed culture based on todays standards? thats crazy. by todays standards people in the 18th century were primitive, just like in 500 years we will probably be seen as primitive.

someone in the thread that this one was born out of pointed out that 'primative' is often seen as a derogatory word.. so what? so the people who were about in those days were arseholes, there are plenty of arseholes about now as well.. by the standards of their day those people were not arseholes so they need to be given a bit of slack for that. those arses are what we came out of and whilst they had some pretty horrific ideas and principles, development had to start somewhere and go through some rough patches.. we are evidently in one of those shit-storms right now.

what this has sprung from is someone asking if modern morals should be taken from a long long out of date book... i am sure at the time that book was great and the center of morality; does that mean it should be held as such now?

well i would say no. whilst there are some good points in there, there are also so hideous points that i really would not want society based on.

We compare it to today's standards because the magic men and ideas in these books are worshiped as the WORD OF A MAGIC SKY WIZARD WRITTEN BY THESE PRIMITIVE PEOPLE!
so what? people believe in all sorts of shit. i couldnt give a rats ass if people claim it was written by a volcano.. it was indicative of the morals and beliefs of the day.. we know we have moved on from that..
Except we haven't moved on from it... if you think it is the word of your particularly godlike entity, then it is the True Word.

"why the hell are we trying to compare a 2000yr passed culture based on todays standards? thats crazy."

Because it is still the infallible word of a god to a majority of people.. and used to justify all sorts of hatred and violence... just like it is being used to justify hating gay people today...
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shadow9d9 wrote:
femgoth wrote:
shadow9d9 wrote:
femgoth wrote:
barrel of snakes right here!!

were the people around at the time of writing/plagurising primative tribesmen?

well by todays standards then yes.. but why the hell are we trying to compare a 2000yr passed culture based on todays standards? thats crazy. by todays standards people in the 18th century were primitive, just like in 500 years we will probably be seen as primitive.

someone in the thread that this one was born out of pointed out that 'primative' is often seen as a derogatory word.. so what? so the people who were about in those days were arseholes, there are plenty of arseholes about now as well.. by the standards of their day those people were not arseholes so they need to be given a bit of slack for that. those arses are what we came out of and whilst they had some pretty horrific ideas and principles, development had to start somewhere and go through some rough patches.. we are evidently in one of those shit-storms right now.

what this has sprung from is someone asking if modern morals should be taken from a long long out of date book... i am sure at the time that book was great and the center of morality; does that mean it should be held as such now?

well i would say no. whilst there are some good points in there, there are also so hideous points that i really would not want society based on.

We compare it to today's standards because the magic men and ideas in these books are worshiped as the WORD OF A MAGIC SKY WIZARD WRITTEN BY THESE PRIMITIVE PEOPLE!
so what? people believe in all sorts of shit. i couldnt give a rats ass if people claim it was written by a volcano.. it was indicative of the morals and beliefs of the day.. we know we have moved on from that..
Except we haven't moved on from it... if you think it is the word of your particularly godlike entity, then it is the True Word.

"why the hell are we trying to compare a 2000yr passed culture based on todays standards? thats crazy."

Because it is still the infallible word of a god to a majority of people.. and used to justify all sorts of hatred and violence... just like it is being used to justify hating gay people today...
He does have a point, once you get past the rating tone. This thread grew out of comment about how the overturning of DOMA would lead to the collapse of America, and how those who support it go against the truth as expressed in the bible.
 
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slatersteven wrote:
shadow9d9 wrote:
femgoth wrote:
shadow9d9 wrote:
femgoth wrote:
barrel of snakes right here!!

were the people around at the time of writing/plagurising primative tribesmen?

well by todays standards then yes.. but why the hell are we trying to compare a 2000yr passed culture based on todays standards? thats crazy. by todays standards people in the 18th century were primitive, just like in 500 years we will probably be seen as primitive.

someone in the thread that this one was born out of pointed out that 'primative' is often seen as a derogatory word.. so what? so the people who were about in those days were arseholes, there are plenty of arseholes about now as well.. by the standards of their day those people were not arseholes so they need to be given a bit of slack for that. those arses are what we came out of and whilst they had some pretty horrific ideas and principles, development had to start somewhere and go through some rough patches.. we are evidently in one of those shit-storms right now.

what this has sprung from is someone asking if modern morals should be taken from a long long out of date book... i am sure at the time that book was great and the center of morality; does that mean it should be held as such now?

well i would say no. whilst there are some good points in there, there are also so hideous points that i really would not want society based on.

We compare it to today's standards because the magic men and ideas in these books are worshiped as the WORD OF A MAGIC SKY WIZARD WRITTEN BY THESE PRIMITIVE PEOPLE!
so what? people believe in all sorts of shit. i couldnt give a rats ass if people claim it was written by a volcano.. it was indicative of the morals and beliefs of the day.. we know we have moved on from that..
Except we haven't moved on from it... if you think it is the word of your particularly godlike entity, then it is the True Word.

"why the hell are we trying to compare a 2000yr passed culture based on todays standards? thats crazy."

Because it is still the infallible word of a god to a majority of people.. and used to justify all sorts of hatred and violence... just like it is being used to justify hating gay people today...
He does have a point, once you get past the rating tone. This thread grew out of comment about how the overturning of DOMA would lead to the collapse of America, and how those who support it go against the truth as expressed in the bible.
i am pretty sure we have moved on.. maybe not as far as we would like (or maybe further than the pope would like) but we are (certainly in a lot of the world) beyond stoning people to death or owning other people etc etc.

there's a fair bit of the bible that makes sense today, there is a hell of a lot that doesn't. luckily, most of the stuff that doesn't has been washed out of civilization. we are in the process of purging the rest of it..
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femgoth wrote:

there's a fair bit of the bible that makes sense today, there is a hell of a lot that doesn't. luckily, most of the stuff that doesn't has been washed out of civilization. we are in the process of purging the rest of it..
If we could only get the Pope to get behind birth control we'd be in the home stretch.
 
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shadow9d9 wrote:
just like it is being used to justify hating gay people today...
yes there are people to use it to 'hate' but those people are cunts and are the sort that will find something else to hate otherwise. the majority of religious people i know do not use anything in their holy texts (christian or otherwise) to hate others. a christian using the bible to explain why he doesnt believe gay people should be allowed to marry doesnt necessarily hate gay people. saying that you think someone elses beliefs are questionable doesnt mean you hate them personally. i hate a lot of things, i dont hate everyone that likes those things.

they majority of christians and muslims i know think that being gay is wrong or against god, but they dont hate gay people, for the most part they are compassionate and pity the gay people they know. whether telling those gay people that they think they are wrong is hurtful or bullying in any way is a whole different thread i think..
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TheChin! wrote:
femgoth wrote:

there's a fair bit of the bible that makes sense today, there is a hell of a lot that doesn't. luckily, most of the stuff that doesn't has been washed out of civilization. we are in the process of purging the rest of it..
If we could only get the Pope to get behind birth control we'd be in the home stretch.
well i hear the current one isn't the pedo-enabler that the last one was (ratzinger failed right?)
 
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femgoth wrote:
shadow9d9 wrote:
just like it is being used to justify hating gay people today...
yes there are people to use it to 'hate' but those people are cunts and are the sort that will find something else to hate otherwise. the majority of religious people i know do not use anything in their holy texts (christian or otherwise) to hate others. a christian using the bible to explain why he doesnt believe gay people should be allowed to marry doesnt necessarily hate gay people. saying that you think someone elses beliefs are questionable doesnt mean you hate them personally. i hate a lot of things, i dont hate everyone that likes those things.

they majority of christians and muslims i know think that being gay is wrong or against god, but they dont hate gay people, for the most part they are compassionate and pity the gay people they know. whether telling those gay people that they think they are wrong is hurtful or bullying in any way is a whole different thread i think..
You think it is reasonable for people to think "being gay is wrong or against god" because they believe in a magical book written by primitive people that contains a ton of ridiculousness(that they pick and choose what to ignore, because as you say, we have "moved on")?
 
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shadow9d9 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
shadow9d9 wrote:
Fwing wrote:
pointless fucking thread.
Cry more.
Are you trying to antagonize people?
His response was crying... I was simply pointing out that crying is ok, but doesn't add much.
If you read my tone as crying it's no wonder you have trouble communicating with people here. Pillock.
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