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Subject: lose quality for cost? rss

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Scott Nelson
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A friend of mine who has successfully KickStarted a few titles has given me the "what's up" in the publishing world, and did suggest that I change a lot of my wooden bits to cardboard (were I to publish, that is). I need to stack them and wooden discs are easy to see how many are stacked versus cardboard. Cardboard would be much cheaper, is it worth losing the quality of gameplay (more fiddly to pick up, and harder to see) for cost?

the bits in question
100 of those discs. I have it up for print and play (and cannibalize games/find the bits).

edit:typos and added picture to show big difference.
 
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Nate Straight

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These are for your "worker" discs? Absolutely do not sub them for cardboard, if so. You can get by with subbing out, say, the wooden cubes tracking resources on the player mat for cardboard tokens [on your revised player mat, that's what you've done, right?], but the idea of stacking, unstacking, putting on buildings on the mat to activate them, and so on is something players will expect to have wooden pieces for.

Additionally, you're targeting people who play Roads & Boats and Antiquity for shit's sake.
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Nate Straight

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NateStraight wrote:
Additionally, you're targeting people who play Roads & Boats and Antiquity for shit's sake.


Which are, admittedly, games that have a ton of cardboard chits... but not "where it counts".

Though my point was just about cost in general.
 
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Adrian Hague
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Sign seen in a photocopier shop:

Quality, Speed, Cost. Choose any two."
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Scott Nelson
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NateStraight wrote:
These are for your "worker" discs? Absolutely do not sub them for cardboard, if so. You can get by with subbing out, say, the wooden cubes tracking resources on the player mat for cardboard tokens [on your revised player mat, that's what you've done, right?], but the idea of stacking, unstacking, putting on buildings on the mat to activate them, and so on is something players will expect to have wooden pieces for.

Additionally, you're targeting people who play Roads & Boats and Antiquity for shit's sake.


Yes, it is for stacking the workers. Yes, I've thought of removing the cubes for chits, because they are never moved around, and only taken off is all...yes, for the new revision tech tracks...or old as well for the tech tracks; they just cover up the tech before you gain it. The old resource tracks could use chits for the tracks, but that seems like a bad idea, and using chits for resources, if going that route, I might as well make the chits the resources and have a ton of them Splotterly speaking of course.

I believe I will have to go with wooden worker discs; tests have proven it much easier to manage. My wife says they don't make cardboard discs thick enough to make it work for her, and this is her favorite prototype so she would hate to see it not playable.

 
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Liz Spain
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I agree that cardboard tokens would be too fiddly to stack. Have you looked at generic thick plastic tokens?

For my game in development, I'm opting to use translucent plastic tokens already available instead of cardboard tokens since, in my case, the plastic tokens cost about the same as printing cardboard tokens with all the printing and cutting die setup fees.

While generally not as aesthetically pleasing as wood, thick plastic tokens could be a higher quality solution that's easier and cheaper to source than wood.
 
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Michael Iachini
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If you're planning on Kickstarting your game, this is an example of the perfect kind of thing to do for a stretch goal.

Get quotes from your manufacturer for various quantities (1,000 copies, 2,000 copies, etc.) and for cardboard worker tokens and wooden worker tokens.

Your base funding goal can be for a 1,000-copy print run with cardboard chits. If you hit a stretch goal, you can upgrade to wood. This way you can keep the funding goal as low as possible and give your backers an awesome reason to spread the word and get more people on board (so that they all get a superior product).

Michael Iachini
Clay Crucible Games
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Brad B
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ChaosAndAlchemy wrote:
If you're planning on Kickstarting your game, this is an example of the perfect kind of thing to do for a stretch goal.

Get quotes from your manufacturer for various quantities (1,000 copies, 2,000 copies, etc.) and for cardboard worker tokens and wooden worker tokens.

Your base funding goal can be for a 1,000-copy print run with cardboard chits. If you hit a stretch goal, you can upgrade to wood. This way you can keep the funding goal as low as possible and give your backers an awesome reason to spread the word and get more people on board (so that they all get a superior product).

Michael Iachini
Clay Crucible Games


I like this idea. Personally, I would happily pay a little extra for wood discs, opposed to cardboard.
 
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Thomas Diener
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Have you looked at mini poker chips?

The ridges would allow easier stacking,
and various pre-made options are ubiquitous.
Alternately: approaching a current manufacturer
for custom colors from pre-made molds should be relatively inexpensive.

As to the question as asked:
Definitely wood over cardboard.
 
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Scott Nelson
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Thanks for all of the input. I need to look into the mini poker chips with good stacking ridges; not the ones I have from the dollar store.
The plastic idea (which I have in my Penguin Panic: The Great Icescape and it seems they can slip and slide off the stack easily. Wood has a tendency to be quite firm in the midst of an accidental tile movement in which they are stacked.

 
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James Hutchings
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My outsider's understanding was that expensive, high-quality games are more popular than cheap, lower-quality ones.

Obviously this might not be true for every group of gamers.
 
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Andrew Rowse
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ChaosAndAlchemy wrote:
If you're planning on Kickstarting your game, this is an example of the perfect kind of thing to do for a stretch goal.

Get quotes from your manufacturer for various quantities (1,000 copies, 2,000 copies, etc.) and for cardboard worker tokens and wooden worker tokens.

Your base funding goal can be for a 1,000-copy print run with cardboard chits. If you hit a stretch goal, you can upgrade to wood. This way you can keep the funding goal as low as possible and give your backers an awesome reason to spread the word and get more people on board (so that they all get a superior product).

Michael Iachini
Clay Crucible Games


This will work for some people, but I suspect it might backfire on others. Personally, I could see myself checking out the project, scanning the info quickly, and seeing the cardboard bits where I'd expect wood. Unless the rest of the project blows me away, I'd be likely to miss the stretch goal info and just discount the project completely.

Upgrading to 'premium' bits as a stretch goal is a neat idea, but I think that a fair proportion of people will regard wood bits as 'standard'.
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Nate Straight

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Frankly, I'm quite likely to buy your game, and if they're anything but wood that's what I'll be replacing them with.

Plastic poker chips with ridges are meant to stay together as stacks, not meant to be manipulated chip by chip. They're enormously aggravating to handle in a chip by chip fashion.
 
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Jake Staines
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KAndrw wrote:

Upgrading to 'premium' bits as a stretch goal is a neat idea, but I think that a fair proportion of people will regard wood bits as 'standard'.


To my mind, a Kickstarter project's goal amount should generally be the absolute minimum amount necessary to construct the cheapest possible iteration of the project being proposed - with as much of the project owner's own money as he can afford, and so on. Obviously this needs to be mediated by "will people actually buy this product at all at that level of quality".

You can then put pictures right near the top of your prototype with wooden pieces and say "here's what we'd like to produce if we reach stretch goal X", and you should absolutely update your "what you get" pictures to include wooden tokens (or whatever) as soon as you reach those stretch goals.

Players who insist on wood before they'll put their money down can watch the project and when they get their 48-hours-left reminder, check whether the wood-pieces stretch goal has been met.





The decision then isn't "would people prefer wooden pieces", but "is the game playable without wooden pieces"... which really, ought to be what it always is based on. If it's going to be too much of a hassle to fuss with cardboard, and people will be put off playing the game solely because the cardboard pieces are too fiddly, then the wood is probably essential. If the cardboard pieces work fine and handle fine and it's just nicer to have wood, then they're a stretch goal.
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