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Legendary: Dark City» Forums » Variants

Subject: Design Challenge: Cloak and Dagger rss

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Atnier Rodriguez
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I think this duo deserves to be part of Dark City.

Let's brainstorm how to bring them to life.

I do not have Photoshop nor do I know how to use it, but if we manage to create their cards, I can hunt for cool pictures and hopefully someone would donate their time for the final steps.

For those who do not know the characters, here they are:




What they can do and how it might translate to the game’s mechanics:

COMIC:
They are both street savvy and usually target drug dealers and save their victims.
GAME:
A bonus when fighting a Villain on the Street?
Rescue a bystander after defeating a Villain on the Street?
Move a Villain to the Streets?

COMIC:
Cloak can teleport himself and others within his cloak, but Dagger is the only one that can be safe inside him.
GAME:
Teleport, and may teleport another card by KOing a card? (teleportation tires him if repeated or massive)

COMIC:
Cloak has intangibility.
Dagger can detoxify a person with her light power.
GAME:
Both abilities could translate to KO'ing a wound in hand or discard pile.

COMIC:
Cloak can swallow enemies and hungers for them.
GAME:
This could be the Rare, automatically defeating any card on Streets? (They are not that concerned about the Mastermind so they focus on their turf) (it might have a drawback, because of his constant hunger, maybe checks for a Ranged icon to do it, symbolizing Dagger’s light that keeps him stable).

COMIC:
Dagger can throw daggers of light but usually they stun instead of kill.
GAME:
Ranged-icon low-to-medium damage. (should balance Cloak’s darker and stronger abilities, maybe makes Villains give up a Bystander since her lights can cause bad guys to renounce their evil ways)

What do you think? Help me out!


CLOAK AND DAGGER (to be filled as we brainstorm)
(Cards summarized further down the thread)
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Darth Ed
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Sounds good! You've put a great deal of thought into thematically translating the characters into gameplay mechanisms. Well done. I like their street focus, especially. I hope you can find someone to team up with and make these cards a reality.
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Atnier Rodriguez
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These are the cards I've come up with, feel free to suggest improvements or point out problems.

I've made several changes from the original ideas. I will edit them to reflect the latest changes and I'll try to explain how and why they changed.

Edited with final changes (I left the explanations, but some of the comments are outdated as DarthEd and I brainstormed throughout the thread).

Affiliation: Marvel Knights

Common 1
Personal Crusade
Hero Class - Covert
Cost - 3
Attack – 0
Recruitment – 0
Effect:
Teleport.

Versatile 1 if there’s a Villain in the Streets.

(Ranged): Rescue a Bystander.



Explanation: They are all about saving others from the short lives they could have had in the mean streets they now patrol. Their focus on their personal agenda means that they are reluctant to help anyone else with their problems, but every once in a while they can offer some quick Teleportation to heroes in need if there's nothing more pressing at home.

Changes: The card originally started as a focused 3 attack on whatever Villain was on the streets. Per observation of another BGG user I changed the effect of the card to rescuing a bystander, since that's what this duo of heroes has as their main concern. I also lowered the attack to be more consistent with other commons. I kept adding and removing the Teleport, but decided to leave it on for now. I think it is more fun to teleport this card in anticipation of a villain winding up on the Streets.

Common 2
Daggers of Light
Hero Class - Ranged
Cost - 3
Attack - 1
Recruitment - 0
Effect:
+1 ATTACK if there’s a Villain in the Streets.

(Covert): You may KO a wound from your hand or discard pile.

Explanation - Her daggers are just strong enough to save a life or make a criminal reconsider their life choices. Her light is what keeps Cloak from letting his darkness take control of his mind.

Changes - I lowered the attack to be more consistent with other commons. This card's effect changed from rescuing a bystander, to drawing a card to what it is now. I didn't want two commons rescuing bystanders because I didn't want another Black Widow. Drawing a card was a simple enough effect, but was not as strong in theme (stunning the opponent with her light dagger would give her one more action) as the overall relationship of these characters. With the uncommon's effect changed to a probable gained wound each time it was played, I wanted this card to symbolize Dagger's countering influence on Cloak's desire to consume life energy. But I did not want Dagger to come across as a healer like Wolverine. So, I ended up giving her the ability (only after Covert aka Darkness has been played) to KO a Wound in the discard pile only, which symbolizes her purifying the darkness or bad choices one has already made.

Uncommon
Darkforce Hunger
Hero Class - Covert
Cost - 5
Attack - 2
Recruitment - 0
Effect:
Teleport

When you Teleport this card, you may Teleport up to two other cards.

For each other card you Teleport, gain a Wound.


Changes - From a Darkforce Hunger to Darkforce Teleportation. Nowadays, Cloak is mainly used as a mass-teleporting hero. He played a very significant role during House of M, becoming an efficient large-scale Nightcrawler-like teleporting hero, albeit one with considerable risks.

Originally, I wanted this card to be a powerful fighting card with the drawback of acquiring wounds, but also with a built-in counter of KOing a Wound if a Ranged card was played before (in other words, he got hungry/angry and became reckless but Dagger nullified his dark impulses). However, it looked like too much text and then I re-considered his attack values and what he has been known to do in the comics these last years. So I scrapped it all and made him a Teleporting taxi.

Since Dagger is the only one truly safe inside his Darkforce Dimension, he can teleport others by straining himself. Luckily, one of the commons can deal with these wounds, effectively showcasing their ying/yang relationship.

If he doesn't teleport a bunch of people, he can ferry any particular hero, hence the Recruit value of 2.

I don't want to put a self-Teleport ability on the card too because I want to keep the card more streamlined and I want to show that Cloak has to exhert himself to do that big instantenous group teleportation.

Rare
Darkness and Light
Hero Class - Dual (Covert and Ranged)
Cost - 7
Attack – 0+
Recruitment – 0+
Effect:
Teleport

Versatile 3

Versatile +1 if there’s a Villain in the Streets.

Whenever you defeat a Villain in the Streets this turn, rescue a Bystander.


Explanation- Now in this card they work together, balancing their energies to achieve maximum efficiency.

Changes- I always wanted the rare card to encompass both of their powers but what that meant changed several times. I thought a similar ability to Nightcrawler's Rare would be nice and then some bystander rescue. But with the uncommon already looking like a version of Nightcrawler's rare (with a drawback), I opted for making it a Teleporting Versatile. If you manage to play both the Covert and Ranged cards of this duo, then you get to rescue a bystander like the common card did and even draw a card without having to KO a Wound. Hopefully, that's the conclusive interpretation of their finest teamwork.

I reversed the nouns on the title too. Sounds better than Light and Darkness, I think.

Removed the (Covert, Ranged) requirement to rescue a bystander and draw a card. Should be a better card now.
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Atnier Rodriguez
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DarthEd wrote:
Sounds good! You've put a great deal of thought into thematically translating the characters into gameplay mechanisms. Well done. I like their street focus, especially. I hope you can find someone to team up with and make these cards a reality.


Thanks, Darth! Hopefully someone volunteers their graphic skills, if not I'll find a way to make 'em!
 
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Alan Kingsley
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A thought on Personal Crusade: Since C&D are so focused on saving others, what if this were something like an automatic save of a bystander on the streets?
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Atnier Rodriguez
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gunslinger81 wrote:
A thought on Personal Crusade: Since C&D are so focused on saving others, what if this were something like an automatic save of a bystander on the streets?


Due to gunslinger81's comment and more thought and time put on the existing cards, I've made several changes and edits to the cards.

I'll keep them updated on my earlier post, editing them as necessary as they get playtested or if something more fun comes to mind.

I hope the current editions have made the cards more balanced, more playable and more fun than how they started.

As always, feel free to comment, criticize and suggest.

And if you got Photoshop skills and some time/interest, then I'll be very happy to see these cards brought to near-official life.
 
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Thomas Suetens
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This would be the first hero card featuring a duo (that I know of). Considering that they are always together, this only makes sense. Also, for the eye-candy, this opens a cool possibility for their cards. Each common can center around 1 of the two, while the uncommon and rare feature them as the duo. (Love your image on the top and this should be their rare!)

But then again, I think you were already thinking along those lines considering what you already described for their rules.
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Atnier Rodriguez
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derare wrote:
This would be the first hero card featuring a duo (that I know of). Considering that they are always together, this only makes sense. Also, for the eye-candy, this opens a cool possibility for their cards. Each common can center around 1 of the two, while the uncommon and rare feature them as the duo. (Love your image on the top and this should be their rare!)

But then again, I think you were already thinking along those lines considering what you already described for their rules.


They are a cool concept to design cards around, but I didn't end up with the symmetrical 1 common for each, then the rest as a duo.

It's just that Cloak's power is more useful than Dagger's (sorry Dagger), hence Cloak gaining the uncommon spot and Dagger happily throwing light darts as a common...

As for them being a duo, I like to think of their first common to be a representation of the low-key specificity of their teamwork. The rare on the other hand, should display the experience they have gathered as partners for years and their useful tactical role in a larger team as partners (Cloak's uncommon is team-friendly enough but with the risk of a wound...it's more beneficial for any team to use them as a duo rather than just one of them).
 
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Darth Ed
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The rare card seems very underpowered to me, even with the Teleport. Maybe make it Teleport+1 and Versatile 4? Domino's rare is Versatile 5 and, with another X-Force card, effectively doubles all other Versatile cards you've played. The Critical Hit on the rare is thematic, but rares don't usually have Critical Hits because they are very hard to combo. The Critical Hit makes it feel more like an uncommon. Just my two cents.
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Atnier Rodriguez
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DarthEd wrote:
The rare card seems very underpowered to me, even with the Teleport. Maybe make it Teleport+1 and Versatile 4? Domino's rare is Versatile 5 and, with another X-Force card, effectively doubles all other Versatile cards you've played. The Critical Hit on the rare is thematic, but rares don't usually have Critical Hits because they are very hard to combo. The Critical Hit makes it feel more like an uncommon. Just my two cents.


Thanks for commenting, I lost sleep yesterday trying to improve the cards. I take it you had no problem with the other cards.

About the rare's cost, I was wondering about that myself but I was afraid of making over-powered cards so I was erring on the side of caution.

Also, I was keeping in mind that Cloak and Dagger are not major players of the Marvel universe, so they should be useful to a point, you know what I mean?

I had the rare at first triggering on both Covert and Ranged, but I don't think there's any card that has two separate checks for effects.

Let's see:

Rare
“Darkness and Light”
Hero Class - Covert
Cost - 7
Attack – 0+
Recruitment – 0+
Effect:
Teleport

Versatile 3

(Covert, Ranged) Rescue a Bystander and draw one card.

Potential fixes:

Lowering the cost from 7 to 6.

Wait, how about getting rid of the Covert, Ranged requirement?

Just rescue a bystander and draw one card?

Would that be still too little for a cost 7 or just fine for a cost 6?

So it would be:

Rare
“Darkness and Light”
Hero Class - Covert
Cost - 6 or 7?
Attack – 0+
Recruitment – 0+
Effect:
Teleport

Versatile 3

Rescue a Bystander and draw one card.

 
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Atnier Rodriguez
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I'll edit "Darkness and Light" per DarthEd's suggestion.

Thematically, I don't need to check for Ranged and Covert, the Rare card already includes both of them.

I'll leave it at cost 7 for now. I'll test it in my next game.
 
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Darth Ed
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I guess I'd still rather have the rare be Versatile 4 and cost 7, or be Versatile 3 and have Teleport+1 at least. I think Teleport+1 is more thematic also. It's been a long time since I read any Cloak & Dagger comics, but I seem to recall the two of them teleporting away together.

Removing the Covert/Ranged Critical Hit requirement from the rare is probably a good idea, but you might want to consider adding the Critical Hit to "Personal Crusade", a la Iron Fist's common. I think the Critical Hit (Covert/Ranged) is very thematic.

I'd like to see a mechanism that allows you to rescue a bystander that has been captured by a villain in the streets. I think some of the cool thematic streets-focus you mentioned in the first post has been lost in going from concept to execution.

Again, this is all just my two cents. Feel free to ignore my comments and make the cards you want to play with.
 
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Atnier Rodriguez
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DarthEd wrote:
I guess I'd still rather have the rare be Versatile 4 and cost 7, or be Versatile 3 and have Teleport+1 at least. I think Teleport+1 is more thematic also. It's been a long time since I read any Cloak & Dagger comics, but I seem to recall the two of them teleporting away together.

Removing the Covert/Ranged Critical Hit requirement from the rare is probably a good idea, but you might want to consider adding the Critical Hit to "Personal Crusade", a la Iron Fist's common. I think the Critical Hit (Covert/Ranged) is very thematic.

I'd like to see a mechanism that allows you to rescue a bystander that has been captured by a villain in the streets. I think some of the cool thematic streets-focus you mentioned in the first post has been lost in going from concept to execution.

Again, this is all just my two cents. Feel free to ignore my comments and make the cards you want to play with.


I like your comments so don't restrict yourself.

I don't want to make the Rare card too good cuz I don't want it to get close to Domino's rare card, which seems to be a beast and very popular among early game owners.

The Rare card should be them together already, so if the card Teleports, it should mean that they both teleport, unlike the uncommon, which is just him or up to three others.

What would the critical hit do to Personal Crusade? I haven't played yet with Iron Fist, so I need to familiarize myself with him. This is the card that I've left as the street-cleaning card. They make the bad guy leave the streets and rescue a bystander. I no longer see them tough enough to take down any villain that saunters over their turf, plus I'm interested in comboing this villain relocation effect with Storm and Blade's specific location attacks.

I'm fine with leaving their set as occasionally useful instead of must-get cards. I really don't want to upstage any official card, so it's cool to make Cloak and Dagger an underdog-type heroic duo.

I'll try to play with them as they are tomorrow and see how they flow.

But thanks for the comments! Keep them coming!

I have other character ideas of course, but I wanted to hammer this couple into a playable set or as close as a non-game designer like myself can do.
 
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Darth Ed
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okami31 wrote:
What would the critical hit do to Personal Crusade? I haven't played yet with Iron Fist, so I need to familiarize myself with him. This is the card that I've left as the street-cleaning card. They make the bad guy leave the streets and rescue a bystander. I no longer see them tough enough to take down any villain that saunters over their turf, plus I'm interested in comboing this villain relocation effect with Storm and Blade's specific location attacks.

Iron Fist's common card's Critical Hit is "STRENGTH, STRENGTH: +3 attack", as I recall (going by memory). Anyway, it just seems to me that Critical Hits, since they're difficult to combo, especially if the icons are different, can make a common or uncommon card more useful without making them overpowered.

I don't consider Cloak and Dagger to be complete lightweights. I'd put Cloak in the same league as Nightcrawler, if not better, and Dagger is maybe a notch below Dazzler.
 
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Atnier Rodriguez
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DarthEd wrote:
okami31 wrote:
What would the critical hit do to Personal Crusade? I haven't played yet with Iron Fist, so I need to familiarize myself with him. This is the card that I've left as the street-cleaning card. They make the bad guy leave the streets and rescue a bystander. I no longer see them tough enough to take down any villain that saunters over their turf, plus I'm interested in comboing this villain relocation effect with Storm and Blade's specific location attacks.

Iron Fist's common card's Critical Hit is "STRENGTH, STRENGTH: +3 attack", as I recall (going by memory). Anyway, it just seems to me that Critical Hits, since they're difficult to combo, especially if the icons are different, can make a common or uncommon card more useful without making them overpowered.

I don't consider Cloak and Dagger to be complete lightweights. I'd put Cloak in the same league as Nightcrawler, if not better, and Dagger is maybe a notch below Dazzler.


I've only read Cloak and Dagger's recent exploits in bigger story arcs, but forum battles between Cloak and Nightcrawler and Dagger vs Dazzler didn't fare well for them. Of course, that's not official and there's fandom involved and all that.

Looking at their cards, they are definitely lacking firepower. I'll think about adding a critical to Personal Crusade.

Do you want to give me your take on it? Might be you can figure out the thematic Streets part that it's not quite coming across.

 
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Darth Ed
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okami31 wrote:
Do you want to give me your take on it? Might be you can figure out the thematic Streets part that it's not quite coming across.

The first card mentions the Streets, but the others don't. I'd like to see at least one or two or maybe all three of the other cards mention the Streets in some way. Off the top of my head, here are some Streets-focused card effects or superpower abilities:

* You get +1 attack when fighting any Villain in the Streets.
* You get +1 recruit if there is a Villain in the Streets.
* Whenever you defeat a Villain in the Streets this turn, rescue a Bystander.

OK, so how would I fit those into your cards? Let's see...

"Darkness and Light" (Rare)
Hero Class - ?? (see Idea below)
Cost - 7
Attack - 0+
Recruitment - 0+
Effect:
Teleport.
Versatile 3.
If there is a Villain in the Streets, +1 Versatile.
Whenever you defeat a Villain (in the Streets???) this turn, rescue a Bystander.

Changes: Well, like I said before, I thought the rare was underpowered. You disagree, I know, but I've made it +1 Versatile if there is a Villain in the Streets, which makes it situational and more thematic, I think. I've dropped the "and draw a card" and changed the bystander effect to a "Whenever" reaction which could trigger multiple times. "Draw a card" is a nice effect, but it's not thematic for these heroes, I feel. (Heroes with card-drawing effects tend to be heroes with fast reflexes or great agility.)

Idea: I'd love to make this card have a dual class of Covert and Ranged. Or allow the player to pick the class, either Covert or Ranged. Obviously, there might be an issue with the iconography though, and perhaps the rules as well. No other cards have had multiple affiliations or multiple classes, so this would be breaking new and shaky ground.

"Daggers of Light" (Common)
Hero Class - Ranged
Attack - 1+
Recruitment - 0
+1 attack when fighting any Henchman Villain in the Streets.
Covert: You may KO a wound from your hand or discard pile.

Changes: I've also dropped the "draw a card" effect here and I've added Streets-focused attack instead. Notice that the attack buff only applies to henchmen, which I think is thematic and keeps the effectiveness of the card in check. I also added "your hand" as a place from which you can KO a wound. Most (all?) "KO a wound" cards specify "your hand or discard pile".

I think "Personal Crusade" would work better as the recruit card, honestly. The title of the card evokes recruiting in my mind, and the moving-a-villain-to-an-adjacent-location seems to be about avoiding fighting, so....

"Personal Crusade" (Common)
Hero Class - Covert
Cost - 3
Attack - 0
Recruitment - 1+
Teleport.
+1 recruit if there is a Henchman Villain in the Streets.
Ranged: You may move any Villain in the Streets to an adjacent City location without a Villain. If you do, rescue a Bystander.

Changes: I'm less sure about the effects on this one, honestly. It seems a little overpowered for a common card. I think the Teleport puts it over the edge, but I'm reluctant to remove it for obvious thematic reasons. I've changed the move-a-villain effect to be a superpower ability with a Ranged prerequisite to compensate, but maybe that takes all the fun out of the card? I kind of assumed "Daggers of Light" would have artwork that featured Dagger with Cloak in the background. And that this card would have artwork which features Cloak and shows Dagger in the background. Overall, I've tried to make this card mirror the other common, "Daggers of Light" as much as possible, but I admit that maybe that's not the right approach.

"Darkforce Teleportation" (Uncommon)
Hero Class - Covert
Cost - 5
Attack - 2
Recruitment - 0
Teleport.
If you Teleport this card, you may Teleport up to two other cards from your hand. If you do Teleport other cards, gain a Wound.

Changes: I changed it back to attack. I didn't like the "discard this card" mechanism, so I've added Teleport to this card and changed it so that you can only teleport two other cards along with it instead of three other cards. I toyed with the idea of making the wounds scale with the number of cards teleported. If you Teleport two other cards, you get two Wounds. If you Teleport one other card, you only gain one Wound. What do you think about that? I think I decided it was just too many Wounds, but I could be persuaded.

I imagine the scenario where you Teleport "Darkforce Hunger" along with two "Daggers of Light" cards, gaining two Wounds in the process. Then, on your next hand, you play "Darkforce Teleportation" for 2 attack, followed by the two "Daggers of Light" cards for 2+ attack and KO both Wounds you just received.
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Joe Dynamo
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I'm still new to the game but I love doing custom cards for DBGs, and I'm just starting on Legendary Customs, but here's my attempt at a temporary filler for your first Cloak & Dagger card using the pic you posted, feedback appreciated on how I can improve my custom carding skills. And if noone better skilled steps up, I'm willing to try doing the cards.


EDIT: I know the 2nd t in Teleport kind of turns into an l, but that's the effect of Order Bold for some reason, looks fine in regular and light tho.
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Atnier Rodriguez
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Yay! Someone stepped to bat in the photoshop category!!!

Thanks! Let me first figure out the final cards per DarthEd's latest suggestions. I'll probably do that on Monday. When everything clicks, you can go at them.

I can fetch ya a bunch of pics too.

Exciting!
 
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Thomas Suetens
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I suggest making the picture in a larger format. The text looks way too pixellated to look nice. Try approaching the feel of the real cards. Nice that you are willing to give these a try though!
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Atnier Rodriguez
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Let's see if we finally nailed it.

"Personal Crusade" (Common)
Hero Class - Covert
Cost - 3
Attack - 0
Recruitment - 0
Teleport.
Versatile 1 if there's a Villain in the Streets.
(Ranged): Rescue a Bystander

Change: Now both commons have to do with the Streets. Versatile for a common is interesting, but this one has a condition. I think Versatile works for them because they are two heroes in one. I hope playing this card leads to a fun waiting game for villains to reach the streets, especially if coupled with their other common and uncommon.

"Daggers of Light" (Common)
Hero Class - Ranged
Cost - 3
Attack - 0
Recruitment - 0
+2 ATTACK if there’s a Villain in the Streets.
(Covert): You may KO a wound from your hand or discard pile.

Changes: I wouldn't like it to target only Henchmen, sounds a bit uninteresting. The alternative was to target low VP Villains, but that would add a little more hassle to what should be a simple Common card.

Should it be cost 3 or 4? I don't want it to be under-costed.

"Darkforce Teleportation" (Uncommon)
Hero Class - Covert
Cost - 6
Attack - 0
Recruitment - 0
Teleport.
Versatile 3.
When you Teleport this card, you may Teleport up to two other cards.
For each other card you Teleport, gain a Wound.

Changes: Upped the cost because the card has both Teleport+ and Versatile.

I liked your risky extra teleportations for wounds dilemma. With their common and rare now doing a good job at removing wounds (and the rare rewards you for that with bystanders), this card would probably turn to be quite useful.

"Darkness and Light" (Rare)
Hero Class - Ranged
Cost - 7
Attack - 0+
Recruitment - 0+
Effect:
Teleport.
When you play or Teleport this card, you may KO a Wound from your hand or discard pile, if you do, rescue a Bystander.
(MK) Versatile 4.

Changes: I feel like we will eventually get multiple affiliations and colors, but let's not get messy with that now. Having dual colors effectively facilitates crazy combos. Now, if there was ever a card to usher that new mechanic, this duo of heroes should have it.

Anyway, I changed it from Covert to Ranged cuz I didn't like that Daggers was their only Ranged card.

Kept the cost the same.

I wanted this card to contain all their common cards' effects. So now it has Teleport, KO's a wound, rescues a bystander and gets a very easy combo to get Versatile 4. If they are at their Rare best, then they earn their Marvel Knights status! (any of their cards will help the combo).

It is still not a smash-your-face high-attack-value card, but it's a subtle healer/rescuer. Teleport is a very useful mechanic, now we have a Teleport that can repeatedly get rid of wounds, plus Versatile 4 is nothing to sneeze at.

Happy now with the rare?

---
Hopefully we have achieved success!

If not, I'll keep trying...sigh.










 
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Atnier Rodriguez
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By the way, getting an image with Cloak in the front and Dagger in the back will be quite difficult.

There's a couple of reasons why Dagger is usually at the front.
 
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Thomas Suetens
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She does have a nicer front...
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Darth Ed
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okami31 wrote:
Happy now with the rare?

---
Hopefully we have achieved success!

If not, I'll keep trying...sigh.

Honestly, I didn't really like most of the changes you made. Sorry. But that's OK. Like I said, you should make the cards you want to play with....
 
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Atnier Rodriguez
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DarthEd wrote:
okami31 wrote:
Happy now with the rare?

---
Hopefully we have achieved success!

If not, I'll keep trying...sigh.

Honestly, I didn't really like most of the changes you made. Sorry. But that's OK. Like I said, you should make the cards you want to play with....


Bummer...what didn't you like about them?
 
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Atnier Rodriguez
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There's obviously ground for improvement. I'm neither an excellent Dark City player or a Cloak and Dagger die-hard fan. I just think they are cool enough to make them playable.

Tell me what works and what doesn't and we'll keep on cookin'.

Kinda like the eye doctor lady. Better with 1 or 2? (or 3!)
 
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