Chad Ellis
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...or that they can't voice their sincere opinions about homosexuality without being criticized for them.

In Pennsylvania an openly-gay State Representative wanted to speak on the floor of the PA house about the significance of the recent DOMA ruling. He was prevented from doing so by two Republicans on a procedural basis. One of them explained why he stopped his colleague from speaking:

Daryl Metcalfe wrote:
I did not believe that as a member of that body that I should allow someone to make comments such as he was preparing to make that ultimately were just open rebellion against what the word of God has said, what God has said, and just open rebellion against God's law.
So maybe this guy isn't you. Maybe you wouldn't even vote for him. But people like him are all over the place and they get elected. When you compare being called a bigot or being criticized for your views with an elected official literally silencing a gay man on the grounds that anything he would say about DOMA would be an open rebellion against God, there's really no comparison. And until Christians say, "We need to clean our own house and stop electing guys like this to represent us," I really don't give a shit about how uncomfortable it makes you feel when people don't like your religious beliefs.

In case you couldn't tell, this one pissed me off. Fortunately, the lawmaker himself has more class than I do. He addressed it nicely:

Quote:
A few months ago I reminded this House that we put our hands on the Bible and swore to uphold the Constitution, not the other way around. What I did was in no way against the law of any God," he said, referencing a speech he made in April. "I can't call anyone a bigot, a homophobe or racist, but language used against me does not live up to the standards of this body.
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Those guys suck.
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Not surprised. This kind of thing happens quite often among conservative religious. Here is another example culled from todays's news:

Responding to this week’s Supreme Court decision overturning the Defense of Marriage Act, Indiana Gov. Mike Pence (R) recommitted the state to passing a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage. Individuals who offered pro-equality counter-responses to his Facebook post started noticing that their comments were being deleted. On Thursday, Pence defended deleting the many hundred comments, claiming they were all “uncivil.”

Now, Pence has admitted that not all the comments were uncivil — many just expressed disagreement — and he has apologized for all the deleting his staff did on the page:

Our longstanding policy, on this and other social media sites, has been to delete inflammatory comments that include name-calling, vulgarity or comments personally insulting to others. It was my understanding that the comments which were deleted all met this standard.

On careful review, it appear that this was not always the case and some comments were being deleted simply because they expressed disagreement with my position. I regret that this occurred and sincerely apologize to all those who were affected. [...]

Hoosiers expect our public debate to be open and respectful and we will ever seek to live up to that standard. In agreement or disagreement, I respect the opinions and the freedoms of all the people of Indiana.
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
So maybe this guy isn't you. Maybe you wouldn't even vote for him. But people like him are all over the place and they get elected. When you compare being called a bigot or being criticized for your views with an elected official literally silencing a gay man on the grounds that anything he would say about DOMA would be an open rebellion against God, there's really no comparison. And until Christians say, "We need to clean our own house and stop electing guys like this to represent us," I really don't give a shit about how uncomfortable it makes you feel when people don't like your religious beliefs.
For what it is worth, I believe that no one should be silenced from expressing their viewpoint, no matter how antithetical to what mine might be. Everyone has the right to be heard. In that this man was an elected official, he should in no way have been prevented from doing his job or representing those who put him in office. Shame on those who thought they were doing a service to God by not allowing this man to do the job he was elected to do. In a government that is supposed to debate opposing ideas, shutting down the debate does no one any favors.
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Couldn't the 2 with treason be charge, for freedom of speech violation?
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christians i almost never have a problem with



bigoted gas bag fuckwits like that....well
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Steve Vondra
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Yes, there are far more Christians that strive to follow the teachings of Christ than there are loudmouth bigoted a$$hats calling themselves Christians.

But why do the former keep electing the latter to represent them?
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Junior McSpiffy
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cooler king wrote:
Yes, there are far more Christians that strive to follow the teachings of Christ than there are loudmouth bigoted a$$hats calling themselves Christians.

But why do the former keep electing the latter to represent them?
Because there aren't enough of the former running for office themselves. It is, after all, politics. Most are too busy doing actual good to bother with that cesspool.

But it's also the voters as well. Too many see the label and believe the label. They see "Christian" and vote for them despite them not living the label, just like many vote for people labeling themselves as "conservative" without looking to see if they actually try to restrict all spending or just certain types of spending, or "progressives" who are fine using authoritarian tactics to monitor and control their own citizenry.
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Boaty McBoatface
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GameCrossing wrote:
cooler king wrote:
Yes, there are far more Christians that strive to follow the teachings of Christ than there are loudmouth bigoted a$$hats calling themselves Christians.

But why do the former keep electing the latter to represent them?
Because there aren't enough of the former running for office themselves. It is, after all, politics. Most are too busy doing actual good to bother with that cesspool.

But it's also the voters as well. Too many see the label and believe the label. They see "Christian" and vote for them despite them not living the label, just like many vote for people labeling themselves as "conservative" without looking to see if they actually try to restrict all spending or just certain types of spending, or "progressives" who are fine using authoritarian tactics to monitor and control their own citizenry.
More likely it's the fact that so many Christian organizations get behind any candidate who proclaims "Christian values are core to my philosophy" without really caring to much who they actually are.

Of course maybe (at heart) most Christians are loudmouth bigoted asshats calling themselves Christians, who just try to hide the fact better. As I believe Christ himself said, we should judge them by their works (in this case who they vote for) not what they say. Sadly if we do apply this standard then those who voe for loudmouth bigoted asshats must be loudmouth bigoted asshats.
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slatersteven wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
cooler king wrote:
Yes, there are far more Christians that strive to follow the teachings of Christ than there are loudmouth bigoted a$$hats calling themselves Christians.

But why do the former keep electing the latter to represent them?
Because there aren't enough of the former running for office themselves. It is, after all, politics. Most are too busy doing actual good to bother with that cesspool.

But it's also the voters as well. Too many see the label and believe the label. They see "Christian" and vote for them despite them not living the label, just like many vote for people labeling themselves as "conservative" without looking to see if they actually try to restrict all spending or just certain types of spending, or "progressives" who are fine using authoritarian tactics to monitor and control their own citizenry.
More likely it's the fact that so many Christian organizations get behind any candidate who proclaims "Christian values are core to my philosophy" without really caring to much who they actually are.

Of course maybe (at heart) most Christians are loudmouth bigoted asshats calling themselves Christians, who just try to hide the fact better. As I believe Christ himself said, we should judge them by their works (in this case who they vote for) not what they say. Sadly if we do apply this standard then those who voe for loudmouth bigoted asshats must be loudmouth bigoted asshats.
Usually what happens is there are two major candidates, a loudmouth bigoted asshat and another loudmouth bigoted asshat. So I vote for the third party and both LBA party voters yell at me for "wasting my vote." Kinda tough to hold someone accountable when the choices are so limited.
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Boaty McBoatface
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happyjosiah wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
cooler king wrote:
Yes, there are far more Christians that strive to follow the teachings of Christ than there are loudmouth bigoted a$$hats calling themselves Christians.

But why do the former keep electing the latter to represent them?
Because there aren't enough of the former running for office themselves. It is, after all, politics. Most are too busy doing actual good to bother with that cesspool.

But it's also the voters as well. Too many see the label and believe the label. They see "Christian" and vote for them despite them not living the label, just like many vote for people labeling themselves as "conservative" without looking to see if they actually try to restrict all spending or just certain types of spending, or "progressives" who are fine using authoritarian tactics to monitor and control their own citizenry.
More likely it's the fact that so many Christian organizations get behind any candidate who proclaims "Christian values are core to my philosophy" without really caring to much who they actually are.

Of course maybe (at heart) most Christians are loudmouth bigoted asshats calling themselves Christians, who just try to hide the fact better. As I believe Christ himself said, we should judge them by their works (in this case who they vote for) not what they say. Sadly if we do apply this standard then those who voe for loudmouth bigoted asshats must be loudmouth bigoted asshats.
Usually what happens is there are two major candidates, a loudmouth bigoted asshat and another loudmouth bigoted asshat. So I vote for the third party and both LBA party voters yell at me for "wasting my vote." Kinda tough to hold someone accountable when the choices are so limited.
Not like in this country, where we have a three way waste of space. Seems as if the more likely you are to get elected the worse you become.
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With respect, this thread is more or less what I'm talking about. It's because of this, it's because of that...but the fact is, people get elected because more people vote for them than the other candidate. And elected officials make public statements largely because they think those statements will improve their standing with voters.

Brian, not long ago you were talking about how gay rights advocates make you feel like a second class citizen, and how Christians are as persecuted as gays. Well, bullshit. Yes, Christians are persecuted in some parts of the world and that's awful. But where is it a capital crime to be Christian? Where can you be put in prison for life just for being Christian?

And, if we look to the states, can you imagine -- even in the most intolerant bastion of liberalism -- an elected official stopping another elected official from speaking because the speaker was going to say something pro-Christian and then bragging about it knowing that his constituents would be supportive?

The whole perspective is warped. Guys like Matt Slick can't tell the difference between getting blowback for advocating a position lots of people find morally repugnant and being persecuted or censored. Large groups of people claim, without the slightest irony, that allowing gay people to marry is somehow imposing on non-gays because they want to live in a world that doesn't have that sort of thing.

One thing I've always liked in the Bible is the notion of removing the beam in your own eye before the mote in the other person's. Well, I think this applies to some extent to groups as well. Large groups of Christians aren't just quietly voicing their belief that homosexuality is sinful but supporting or at least not objecting to civil equality. They're trying to keep homosexuals out of public life as much as possible. They're banning not only marriage but civil unions and even adoption. (My best friend and his husband live in Texas; his husband has no legal parental status wrt the kids they've been raising from birth.) They're spreading lies about gay recruitment and doing everything they can to go back to the good old days where gays lived in the closet for fear of losing their jobs, their families and their homes.

So make a choice. Either work at cleaning up your own house by pushing back at or rebuking Christians who are doing evil -- reminding them that there are no special sins and that they're acting contrary to Christ's commands -- or don't have the gall to complain that a world that is advancing past your morality doesn't mind telling you so.

Or pick a third option -- I'm sure not having much sympathy from me is something you can live with.
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Billythehut wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Seems as if the more likely you are to get elected the worse you become.
I blame large comfortable furniture:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/on-leadership/wp/2013/06...

:)
That explains the Spanish Inquisition.
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
With respect, this thread is more or less what I'm talking about. It's because of this, it's because of that...but the fact is, people get elected because more people vote for them than the other candidate. And elected officials make public statements largely because they think those statements will improve their standing with voters.

Brian, not long ago you were talking about how gay rights advocates make you feel like a second class citizen, and how Christians are as persecuted as gays. Well, bullshit. Yes, Christians are persecuted in some parts of the world and that's awful. But where is it a capital crime to be Christian? Where can you be put in prison for life just for being Christian?

And, if we look to the states, can you imagine -- even in the most intolerant bastion of liberalism -- an elected official stopping another elected official from speaking because the speaker was going to say something pro-Christian and then bragging about it knowing that his constituents would be supportive?

The whole perspective is warped. Guys like Matt Slick can't tell the difference between getting blowback for advocating a position lots of people find morally repugnant and being persecuted or censored. Large groups of people claim, without the slightest irony, that allowing gay people to marry is somehow imposing on non-gays because they want to live in a world that doesn't have that sort of thing.

One thing I've always liked in the Bible is the notion of removing the beam in your own eye before the mote in the other person's. Well, I think this applies to some extent to groups as well. Large groups of Christians aren't just quietly voicing their belief that homosexuality is sinful but supporting or at least not objecting to civil equality. They're trying to keep homosexuals out of public life as much as possible. They're banning not only marriage but civil unions and even adoption. (My best friend and his husband live in Texas; his husband has no legal parental status wrt the kids they've been raising from birth.) They're spreading lies about gay recruitment and doing everything they can to go back to the good old days where gays lived in the closet for fear of losing their jobs, their families and their homes.

So make a choice. Either work at cleaning up your own house by pushing back at or rebuking Christians who are doing evil -- reminding them that there are no special sins and that they're acting contrary to Christ's commands -- or don't have the gall to complain that a world that is advancing past your morality doesn't mind telling you so.

Or pick a third option -- I'm sure not having much sympathy from me is something you can live with.
Many of us are. The fact that we are discussing it in a detached, academic way doesn't reflect how we conduct ourselves in our churches and communities. You want Christians who are outraged at bigotry to come into BGG and type in all caps "YEAH!!!! BIGOTRY SUCKS!!!!"? Um.... okay. There you go. You got it. But that there was the choir I was preaching in all-caps to. In other words, the topic is being discussed in a particular light because of the venue. Don't make the mistake of thinking that we here are just stroking our beards and gazing at our navels on this forum and then going about the business-as-usual routine the rest of the time.

Yes, it's sad that bigotry has been so entrenched for so long and that society coddled it in such a way that decrying a sin was seen as justification for belittling a person. And I say this as one who was deeply steeped in that "tradition." I'm glad I've since grown beyond it.

But it seems like you are doing a bit of goose-and-gandering. Society as a whole only embraces change at a certain rate. We've seen that in regard to race. We've seen it in regard to gender equality. We've seen that in regard to homosexuality. In no sense are we "there" with any of those, but we're light years from where we've been. But hey, let's ignore the rate at which cultures adopt change and demand that religious culture do a jet-ski 180* on everything right this instant. The kind of time it will take for religious culture to change will most likely be at a similar rate to the pace of those other changes... decades. And it's most likely only starting now.

Look, it would be great if everyone would adapt instantly, but it won't happen. The person who hadn't really thought of it and just heard sermons on the evils of homosexuality... is looking around and seeing that they're just people. They're not buying in to the slippery slope gobbeldy-gook that is being put out there anymore. But there is still community, identity and the sense of impending salvation that comes from a church. You can't expect a person to instantly distance themselves from all of that just because they have the thought "Them gays aren't so bad." So what it takes is a few speaking up, shaming those who dehumanize gays in the way they talk, truly adhering to the "love the sinner, hate the sin" mantra rather than using it as a shield to justify their ignorance. Once a few speak up, then a few more do. And that's the snowball rolling down the hill. But it takes time. It took time to get to where there is a greater degree of equality for all. Allow a little time for this change as well.

And don't make the mistake of thinking that just because this change is slow to come like all the others have been... that there aren't those of us who are working to make it happen. We are. We're just not keen to cast people out into the cold as we do it. We would rather win over their hearts and minds with love rather than bully them into accepting this "new" way of doing things.
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GameCrossing wrote:
Don't make the mistake of thinking that we here are just stroking our beards and gazing at our navels on this forum and then going about the business-as-usual routine the rest of the time.
I don't. I get that some of you dispute this. But you're either few in number or being pretty quiet about it.

Your church was a major force behind Prop 8, raising a lot of money through small, individual donations. Did you speak out against this? If so, how loudly?

Quote:
But it seems like you are doing a bit of goose-and-gandering. Society as a whole only embraces change at a certain rate. We've seen that in regard to race. We've seen it in regard to gender equality. We've seen that in regard to homosexuality. In no sense are we "there" with any of those, but we're light years from where we've been. But hey, let's ignore the rate at which cultures adopt change and demand that religious culture do a jet-ski 180* on everything right this instant. The kind of time it will take for religious culture to change will most likely be at a similar rate to the pace of those other changes... decades. And it's most likely only starting now.
Please reread what I wrote. The point of the thread is not to complain that I'm not getting everything I want right away -- I've frequently commented on the amazing speed with which things are moving right now. This thread is about Christians who complain that society is biased against them or who claim that there is virtually no bias remaining against gays.

Quote:
And don't make the mistake of thinking that just because this change is slow to come like all the others have been... that there aren't those of us who are working to make it happen. We are. We're just not keen to cast people out into the cold as we do it. We would rather win over their hearts and minds with love rather than bully them into accepting this "new" way of doing things.
Fair enough. Again, the point of this thread isn't to assume that no one is doing anything or to give people shit for not doing enough -- it's to explain to those who from time to time say that Christians are really the group being treated unfairly that I think that's bullshit.
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
Your church was a major force behind Prop 8, raising a lot of money through small, individual donations. Did you speak out against this? If so, how loudly?
Honestly? I didn't know about the efforts of the LDS church in fundraising on that front until after the fact, after the vote had been held. Had I known, I would have spoken up about it. But my understanding is (and feel free to correct me if I am just picking up the after-the-fact spinjob propaganda) that the fundraising was done via individual wards and branches and member "grassroots" efforts and was -not- something that was endorsed by the prophet, central HQ in Salt Lake City or anything like that. (Again... correct me if I am wrong.) Once it came to light, you saw a lot of demonstrations in Utah basically saying "Really?" Hating people is not what a lot of church members base their faith on.

Since then, you've heard a lot of talks from the pulpit, both locally and from the top leadership of the church, advocating taking control of your family's faith and not expecting legislation to do it for you, to be kind to those who believe differently than you do, and to truly understand the difference between sinner and sin. And while the cynic may say "Nice of you to say it after the fact," knowing what I know of when the church truly wants to get a message across and when they kind of give a wink-and-a-nod to something, I believe this is sincere. I think they didn't know that their wards were being used as fundraising outlets, and I think this "campaign" of "love thy neighbor, no matter what" is a concerted effort to get that across to those who still think the Prop 8 fundraising fiasco was perfectly okay.
 
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GameCrossing wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
Your church was a major force behind Prop 8, raising a lot of money through small, individual donations. Did you speak out against this? If so, how loudly?
Honestly? I didn't know about the efforts of the LDS church in fundraising on that front until after the fact, after the vote had been held. Had I known, I would have spoken up about it. But my understanding is (and feel free to correct me if I am just picking up the after-the-fact spinjob propaganda) that the fundraising was done via individual wards and branches and member "grassroots" efforts and was -not- something that was endorsed by the prophet, central HQ in Salt Lake City or anything like that. (Again... correct me if I am wrong.)
From 2008:

Quote:
Two members of the church's second-highest governing body, the Quorum of Twelve Apostles, quoted from Mormon scripture on the sanctity of marriage as they laid out a week-by-week strategy for boosting Mormon involvement before the Nov. 4 election in voter registration efforts, phone banks and distributing campaign materials.

“What we're about is the work of the Lord, and He will bless you for your involvement,” apostle M. Russell Ballard said during the hour-long meeting, which was broadcast to church buildings in California, Utah, Hawaii and Idaho.
Quote:
Its involvement in the California same-sex marriage debate this year began with a letter from church President Thomas S. Monson asking California Mormons to give their time and money to pass Proposition 8. Monson's letter has been read repeatedly in Mormon churches, and opponents of the forthcoming initiative have credited LDS members with giving the Yes on 8 camp an edge in donations and volunteers.

Some Mormons have criticized the church for wading so heavily into the political realm.

“We know that it is not without controversy, yet let me be clear that at the heart of this issue is the central doctrine of eternal marriage and it's place in our Father's plan,” Ballard said.

Besides Clayton and Ballard, the broadcast featured Quentin L. Cook, another member of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles.
That's pretty clear cut that it was coming from the church leadership down against Proposition 8, GameCrossing, not from the ward level up.
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
And, if we look to the states, can you imagine -- even in the most intolerant bastion of liberalism -- an elected official stopping another elected official from speaking because the speaker was going to say something pro-Christian and then bragging about it knowing that his constituents would be supportive?
As the numbers shift this is bound to happen. Human nature and history practically guarantee it.

Chad_Ellis wrote:
The whole perspective is warped. Guys like Matt Slick can't tell the difference between getting blowback for advocating a position lots of people find morally repugnant and being persecuted or censored.
Blowback as in having to apologize publicly for holding to a moral position that finds gay marriage morally repugnant as much as others would find that thinking objectionable?. You miss that no one has to apologize or fear losing their job for finding Matt Slick's position objectionable. But those who hold to Matt Slick's position do. Rather unfair, no?

Chad_Ellis wrote:
Large groups of Christians aren't just quietly voicing their belief that homosexuality is sinful but supporting or at least not objecting to civil equality. They're trying to keep homosexuals out of public life as much as possible. They're banning not only marriage but civil unions and even adoption.
The nature of christian belief leaves no choice but to object to anything that would legitimize behavior considered sinful. That it hasn't been done consistently and fairly is shameful. This in no way means that further attempts should be abandoned.

Chad_Ellis wrote:
They're spreading lies about gay recruitment and doing everything they can to go back to the good old days where gays lived in the closet for fear of losing their jobs, their families and their homes.
Lying is simply sinful. You're absolutely right to demand we act according to the tenets of our faith.

Chad_Ellis wrote:
So make a choice. Either work at cleaning up your own house by pushing back at or rebuking Christians who are doing evil -- reminding them that there are no special sins and that they're acting contrary to Christ's commands -- or don't have the gall to complain that a world that is advancing past your morality doesn't mind telling you so.
True enough. But does the same apply to you? That is, are you so without sin that you can demand that of others without being guilty of the same behavior?
 
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
With respect, this thread is more or less what I'm talking about. It's because of this, it's because of that...but the fact is, people get elected because more people vote for them than the other candidate. And elected officials make public statements largely because they think those statements will improve their standing with voters.

Brian, not long ago you were talking about how gay rights advocates make you feel like a second class citizen, and how Christians are as persecuted as gays. Well, bullshit. Yes, Christians are persecuted in some parts of the world and that's awful. But where is it a capital crime to be Christian? Where can you be put in prison for life just for being Christian?

And, if we look to the states, can you imagine -- even in the most intolerant bastion of liberalism -- an elected official stopping another elected official from speaking because the speaker was going to say something pro-Christian and then bragging about it knowing that his constituents would be supportive?

The whole perspective is warped. Guys like Matt Slick can't tell the difference between getting blowback for advocating a position lots of people find morally repugnant and being persecuted or censored. Large groups of people claim, without the slightest irony, that allowing gay people to marry is somehow imposing on non-gays because they want to live in a world that doesn't have that sort of thing.

One thing I've always liked in the Bible is the notion of removing the beam in your own eye before the mote in the other person's. Well, I think this applies to some extent to groups as well. Large groups of Christians aren't just quietly voicing their belief that homosexuality is sinful but supporting or at least not objecting to civil equality. They're trying to keep homosexuals out of public life as much as possible. They're banning not only marriage but civil unions and even adoption. (My best friend and his husband live in Texas; his husband has no legal parental status wrt the kids they've been raising from birth.) They're spreading lies about gay recruitment and doing everything they can to go back to the good old days where gays lived in the closet for fear of losing their jobs, their families and their homes.

So make a choice. Either work at cleaning up your own house by pushing back at or rebuking Christians who are doing evil -- reminding them that there are no special sins and that they're acting contrary to Christ's commands -- or don't have the gall to complain that a world that is advancing past your morality doesn't mind telling you so.

Or pick a third option -- I'm sure not having much sympathy from me is something you can live with.
In answer to your question, how about China? How about the Philippines? How about those territories of Muslim states that are controlled by extremist factions? Those are just a few places that you can die for being a Christian. Like I said before, just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean it does not happen, so call BS all you want, but I could care less what you think in that regard. If you cannot respect those who give their lives helping others and are then murdered, beaten or kidnapped, then I'm really not sure why I should respect anything you have to say.

In regards to other portions of your post, I have already made a decision and it is to not work to actively perpetuate a lifestyle that I find antithetical to Christianity. With respect to that, I do not view a homosexual marriage as a true marriage. I see it as a civil union. As such, I have no problem granting gays the same rites that married people have in terms of the law. I will not, however, be party to any activity which would perpetuate a belief/lifestyle that is contrary to my beliefs, so you will just have to deal with the fact the I am pro-traditional marriage.

Lastly, I owe you nothing. Not a response, a reply or even an acknowledgement. You are not the one I am ultimately answerable to.
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lpadron wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
And, if we look to the states, can you imagine -- even in the most intolerant bastion of liberalism -- an elected official stopping another elected official from speaking because the speaker was going to say something pro-Christian and then bragging about it knowing that his constituents would be supportive?
As the numbers shift this is bound to happen. Human nature and history practically guarantee it.
So it's OK that religious people are authoritarian tyrants, because probably non-religious people would if they could.

And human nature? Don't Christians have access to a magical being who prevents that from being an issue?

lpadron wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
The whole perspective is warped. Guys like Matt Slick can't tell the difference between getting blowback for advocating a position lots of people find morally repugnant and being persecuted or censored.
Blowback as in having to apologize publicly for holding to a moral position that finds gay marriage morally repugnant as much as others would find that thinking objectionable?. You miss that no one has to apologize or fear losing their job for finding Matt Slick's position objectionable. But those who hold to Matt Slick's position do. Rather unfair, no?
Nope! Because I can hate dumb religiously motivated bigots all day, but as long as I don't try to take away their free speech, I'll never have to apologize for it.

He doesn't have to apologize for having stupid ideas (though I guess at some point if he wants to keep getting elected he might have to back away from them assuming demographics keep shifting) but he does have to apologize for betraying the core values of democracy which all of us, regardless of what we disagree about, share.

lpadron wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
Large groups of Christians aren't just quietly voicing their belief that homosexuality is sinful but supporting or at least not objecting to civil equality. They're trying to keep homosexuals out of public life as much as possible. They're banning not only marriage but civil unions and even adoption.
The nature of christian belief leaves no choice but to object to anything that would legitimize behavior considered sinful. That it hasn't been done consistently and fairly is shameful. This in no way means that further attempts should be abandoned.
And we will always be there to stop you. And we're winning.

lpadron wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
They're spreading lies about gay recruitment and doing everything they can to go back to the good old days where gays lived in the closet for fear of losing their jobs, their families and their homes.
Lying is simply sinful. You're absolutely right to demand we act according to the tenets of our faith.

Chad_Ellis wrote:
So make a choice. Either work at cleaning up your own house by pushing back at or rebuking Christians who are doing evil -- reminding them that there are no special sins and that they're acting contrary to Christ's commands -- or don't have the gall to complain that a world that is advancing past your morality doesn't mind telling you so.
True enough. But does the same apply to you? That is, are you so without sin that you can demand that of others without being guilty of the same behavior?
I can say that I've never tried to stop someone from speaking in a political context and I've never lied to win a political argument or scare someone onto my side.

The fact is that it's very easy to be honest when you're pro gay equality. You don't have to make things up.
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bmhoman1 wrote:
Lastly, I owe you nothing. Not a response, a reply or even an acknowledgement. You are not the one I am ultimately answerable to.
Ah, but because we are answerable to that One we DO owe Chad something: love. grace. patience. respect even if we disagree with him and he with us. doing our best for his good and all those things shown us despite our not deserving any of it.
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lpadron wrote:
bmhoman1 wrote:
Lastly, I owe you nothing. Not a response, a reply or even an acknowledgement. You are not the one I am ultimately answerable to.
Ah, but because we are answerable to that One we DO owe Chad something: love. grace. patience. respect even if we disagree with him and he with us. doing our best for his good and all those things shown us despite our not deserving any of it.
Of course, you are right on that. My ire got the better of me.
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rylfrazier wrote:
So it's OK that religious people are authoritarian tyrants, because probably non-religious people would if they could.And human nature? Don't Christians have access to a magical being who prevents that from being an issue?
No to the first. And the second part of your answer shows your unfamiliarity with what this particular faith has to say about human nature.

rylfrazier wrote:
Nope! Because I can hate dumb religiously motivated bigots all day, but as long as I don't try to take away their free speech, I'll never have to apologize for it.
But having your livelihood threatenedis a way to control if not take away free speech altogether.

rylfrazier wrote:
He doesn't have to apologize for having stupid ideas (though I guess at some point if he wants to keep getting elected he might have to back away from them assuming demographics keep shifting) but he does have to apologize for betraying the core values of democracy which all of us, regardless of what we disagree about, share.
What are those core values? And obviously we don't all share them if there's such disagreement.

rylfrazier wrote:
I can say that I've never tried to stop someone from speaking in a political context and I've never lied to win a political argument or scare someone onto my side.
I think I detect a "no" as the answer to my question. If so, aren't you guilty of hypocrisy by demanding perfection of others when you don't require it of yourself?

rylfrazier wrote:
The fact is that it's very easy to be honest when you're pro gay equality. You don't have to make things up.
Could you elaborate on this a bit? Why is it easier to be more honest simply by holding to gay equality than otherwise?
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Could you edit your post? I think you're misidentifying who you're talking to.

EDIT: Thanks.
 
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Sorry about that; got if fixed just now.
Man, I've really screwed up that last reply. Let me go back and really correct it. I don't even know how I got Chad's name in there. Apologies to everyone...
 
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