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Subject: New Wonder - Keep your hand rss

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David Pomeroy
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Hi all, I've been frequenting this site for a while now, but this is my first real post. I've come up with an idea for a wonder and am interested in feedback. Note that I've stolen the idea for its special ability from another post which I cannot find at the moment; I'd be grateful if someone was able to let me know where I got the idea .

Starting resource: 1 brown resource that you can't produce using other brown cards (like Black Market from Cities, but only applying to brown resources).

Side A:
First Stage - Grants 3 victory points, costs 2 ore.
Second Stage - When you build it, keep your current hand for the next turn. The hand you would have received is passed to the next player. Costs 2 wood and 1 glass.
Third Stage - Grants 7 victory points, costs 3 brick and 1 scroll.

Side B:
First Stage - Grants 3 victory points, costs 2 wood and 1 glass.
Second Stage - Once this stage is built, once per age you may keep your hand for the next turn.
No third stage.

Notes on the starting resource: The resource is brown for ALL purposes. This means that playing Black Market will never be able to give you another brown resource, but playing Secret Warehouse will still be able to double its production. Playing Caravansery will not impact its ability to produce resources. Your neighbors can buy its ability from you for two coins as normal, although the resource it produces is based on the other brown resources they have, not on the ones that you have. (For example, if they don't have stone, it can produce a stone for them even if you do have stone.)

Analysis: At first glance, I thought this would be overpowered. However, the 3 or 4 times this has seen play have all resulted in a loss for the player using it . The starting resource is powerful at the beginning, but it's very hard to build up to multiples of the brown resources. The ability on side A isn't too powerful, but allows you to bury a card and play a card from the same hand. The ability on side B is better (since it allows you to potentially play 2 cards from the same hand), but there's no third stage available. I think this wonder may be pretty good in the right hands, but difficult to use effectively.

I also don't know what to call it. I think the Roman Roads are a good fit - whoever controls the roads is able to get resources they wouldn't otherwise be able to get, and can stop traffic if it suits them. I think the Stargate would fit even better (mainly because Stargate is amazing), but that doesn't really fit in the time period...
 
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Al Washburn
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The card you're thinking of that does something similar is the promo card Estaban.

So, since when I build a wonder it's often because there are no cards I want in that hand, I'd be afraid that your Side A:
Second Stage - When you build it, keep your current hand for the next turn. The hand you would have received is passed to the next player. Costs 2 wood and 1 glass.
Would just end up screwing you over...I know I'd never play it.

Side B is interesting because it's different from Esteban (where everone keeps their hands a second turn) because you skip a hand. This feels not balanced because in, say, a 3 player game you basically can know where all the cards are by the second hand and know which you want to skip, but in, say a 7 or 8 player game there are decks you don't see...so basically you're guessing. Point is the more players the less valuable the card is, and in a 3 player game it might be TOO valuable. While it's kind of neat, again, it's not one I'm sure I'd want to play...
 
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Aye makes a really good point about side A and it was my first thought as well. The second stage is pretty worthless, it lets you maybe deny a hand to a neighbour, but mostly it's a dead play. You get a second turn with a hand, but your first play wasn't explicitly using any cards from it.

In small games this could be valuable - bury both of one science symbol in the hand, totally ruining the science player's day. Or bury some military and build the next. But these things seem very niche, and not really worth a play, and in larger games, even less useful.

My first suggestion would be at least add VPs to it. 3 VPs is probably fine. The wonder itself also seems very expensive for an A side. You need 3 brick and access to an extra wood and ore (or two of each yourself - although caravanserry is great here) and two manufactured goods.

Side B is the kind of thing I'd need to play to have any idea how good it is. What does it cot, mind you?

Also... I agree, Stargate is far too old to fit in the time period whistle
 
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Al Washburn
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I Eat Tables wrote:
The second stage is pretty worthless, it lets you maybe deny a hand to a neighbour, but mostly it's a dead play. You get a second turn with a hand, but your first play wasn't explicitly using any cards from it.
I'm having trouble following what you mean by this, the way I read it is you choose a hand to keep twice...you'd only use it because there were 2 cards you really wanted to play. Personally I find this seems to happen at least once a game (probably more)...So how is it a dead play? The way the wonder reads it doesn't force you to keep any specific hand (like side A basically makes you keep the same hand you used to build it twice) you choose once per age (obviously up to 3 times if you build it in Age 1)...or am I misreading this proposed wonder?
 
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Thiago Leite
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ayedub wrote:

So, since when I build a wonder it's often because there are no cards I want in that hand, I'd be afraid that your Side A:
Second Stage - When you build it, keep your current hand for the next turn. The hand you would have received is passed to the next player. Costs 2 wood and 1 glass.
Would just end up screwing you over...I know I'd never play it.
sometimes, when you want to some card doesn't go to your neighbour, but you can't but face u´p, I usually hide it on my wonder stage, and if you have a second card that you can and you want to build on the same hand, this stage can be usefull.

but I think is very specific

 
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Al Washburn
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thiagosleite wrote:

sometimes, when you want to some card doesn't go to your neighbour, but you can't but face u´p, I usually hide it on my wonder stage, and if you have a second card that you can and you want to build on the same hand, this stage can be usefull.

but I think is very specific

Yeah, I thought of that situation after I posted, and I agree that can be very helpful...I just fear Side A is too narrowly focused situationally.
 
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ayedub wrote:
I Eat Tables wrote:
The second stage is pretty worthless, it lets you maybe deny a hand to a neighbour, but mostly it's a dead play. You get a second turn with a hand, but your first play wasn't explicitly using any cards from it.
I'm having trouble following what you mean by this, the way I read it is you choose a hand to keep twice...you'd only use it because there were 2 cards you really wanted to play. Personally I find this seems to happen at least once a game (probably more)...So how is it a dead play? The way the wonder reads it doesn't force you to keep any specific hand (like side A basically makes you keep the same hand you used to build it twice) you choose once per age (obviously up to 3 times if you build it in Age 1)...or am I misreading this proposed wonder?
You're misreading it. It lets you keep the current hand again, not one of choice. So regardless of how good or bad your current hand is, building this wonder stage just makes you keep the same hand to do something else from. You can't play two cards from the hand - one MUST be used to build this wonder stage.
 
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Randy Hoyt
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I could see the Side A power working if it gave you the opportunity to keep a future hand twice in a row. This would be powerful in a 3-player game because you know where all the cards are and which hand you'd want twice. I could see myself playing this on the second turn of Age 2 or Age 3 if there are two things I really want in the hand to get on the third turn.
 
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