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Legendary: Dark City» Forums » Rules

Subject: Card Clarifications rss

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Matt Perron
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Playing tonight with friends we came accross these two issues that I was hoping someone here might be able to clear up:

Angel's "Drop off a Friend" combining with Cyclops "Unending Energy" at first we allowed these to be paired up. Playing Angels card first (Drop off a friend = 2+ attack , you may discard a card and add that cards cost to your attack total), discarding Cyclops (Unending Energy = 4 attack, if a card effect forces you to discard this card you may take it back into your hand) and then taking it back into hand for a combo of 12 attack points. When looking at the wording on the cards though it looks like it can also be interpreted that you can not take back Cyclops' card due to his card saying "forced to discard" and Angels saying that you "may" meaning that you chose to discard.

Any thoughts?

Second question was with Jean Grey and her Rare and Common that state that you are +1 for each bystander rescued that turn. Do these cards follow the standard Legendary rules that they would only be effected by bystanders rescued prior to that card being played out of hand or does the wording "this turn" mean that the effect is cumulative for the whole of your turn and you would get the boost added on once all cards have been played and your turn is over. Also if you were to go with the second interpretation and you were to attack Apocalypse and draw the Tactic that states "if this is not the last tactic remaining rescue 6 bystanders and shuffle this tactic in with the remaining tactics" would you at that point gain another +6 bonus as you turn is not over until all card effects have been completed?

I look forward to seeing how everyone else interprets these situations and to maybe getting some sort of official ruling.
 
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Scott Carvalho
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Played a game the other night and pulled off that angel/Cyclops trick. No one had any objections regarding the 12 attack.

As for the Jean Grey question I think the +1 would only count for every person after she is played but that is my take on it. I'd like to see an official ruling on those types of situations myself.

From here on in, they really need to be specific with the rules and card texts. Since the expansion hit the market, most of the posts for Legendary have been rules related.
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Darth Ed
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"May discard" is not a forced discard. IMHO, these two cards do not combo off of each other.
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Jacovis
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As for Jean Grey, cards only affect the play field after they come into play. Cards that say "Whenever X do Y" have already been clarified by Devin to only work on cards played after that card. Cards in Legendary, unless specifically stated othwrwise, never work retroactively.

I'll add that to my clarifications list later on.

As for Angel's wording of "May", once the player chooses to discard a card, the effect is forced. You're not necessarily "forced" to discard Cyclops particularly any time you have other cards in your hand, so his text would be nearly useless if interpreted too strictly.

To sum up, I'm positive about Jean Grey only working on cards after she has been played, and I would very much like an official answer to Angel, but I have a nagging feeling it has already been addressed somewhere.

Cheers!

Edit: HERE is why I think the Cyclops/Angel combo works; and HERE is where he touches on the "Whenever X do Y" format. The card doesn't say "For every bystander you rescued this turn," which is another card format, it says "Whenever you rescue a bystander." The two types of text are distinct: The former refers to things done before the card was played, the latter refers to things done after the card is played.
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Matt Perron
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So with the second interpretation "whenever you rescue a bystander this turn" Does the Apocalypse tactic then give you a +6 boost?
 
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Knobbly Savage
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Let's take the following sequence of events: Yo play enough cards to allow you to attack Apocalypse. Then you play "Read Your Thoughts" (Whenever you rescue a Bystander this turn, get +1 recruit). You then attack Apocalypse and draw the tactic that lets you rescue 6 Bystanders. This gives you 6 recruit. If one of the cards you played to get the attack was Black Widow's "Dangerous Rescue" and you used it to gain a Bystander, then that does not count for "Read Your Thoughts", because the "whenever" cards only look into the future from their point of play.

TL;DR: Yes (And I agree with Jacovis's reading of the Angel/Cyclops situation)
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Matt Perron
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Thank you very much to both of you. We played both situations out in that manner. Which led to some amazing combo's along with Iceman and Rogue on the same lineup. Hit Apocalypse 6 times and still lost... damn tactic card.
 
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C Penberth III
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DarthEd wrote:
"May discard" is not a forced discard. IMHO, these two cards do not combo off of each other.


I don't think that's right. Let's say I have Cyclops' Optic Blast , Cyclops' Unending Energy , and 4 wounds.
I play Optic Blast, I wouldn't be able to trigger the Unending Energyas I'm not forced to discard Unending Energy. This is because I could legally choose a wound instead. This would make Unending Energy an almost useless card.
 
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Knobbly Savage
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cptep46 wrote:
DarthEd wrote:
"May discard" is not a forced discard. IMHO, these two cards do not combo off of each other.


I don't think that's right. Let's say I have Cyclops' Optic Blast , Cyclops' Unending Energy , and 4 wounds.
I play Optic Blast, I wouldn't be able to trigger the Unending Energyas I'm not forced to discard Unending Energy. This is because I could legally choose a wound instead. This would make Unending Energy an almost useless card.


Well, to be fair, I think Darth Ed did not mean that the effect has to force that specific card to discard, but instead that there's a distinction between mandatory and optional effects ("do this" vs. "you may do this"), and that that is the distinction that prevents Unending Energy from working. As I said, I do agree with Jacovis however.
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Darth Ed
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Once you choose to play Cyclops' "Optic Blast" card, you are forced to discard a card, which means you can then trigger "Unending Energy". I completely agree with that.

Any discards as a result of Angel, on the other hand, are completely optional. You can play the Angel card and not discard anything, if you don't want to. IMHO, that means "Unending Energy" simply does not apply because no card effect is forcing you to discard, and it says "forced discard".

I seem to be in the minority on my interpretation, so it's certainly possible I'm wrong, but that's how I'm going to play it until we get clarification from Devin Low.

Would sending Devin Low a GeekMail and asking him to post clarifications in a few specific Rules threads be considered gauche?
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Jacovis
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I can only imagine, given their normal presence n these forums, that they are busy making sure they get their answers correct or something, so I'm just waiting for now.

As for the a cyclops thing, you have to remember each card plays out in its entirety before the next card. So, you play Angel. You decide to discard a card, or not (we are saying yes). Then, you move on to the actual discard. At the time you resolve Cyclops, you no longer have a choice to discard a card, you have to do it.

As I said, though, I welcome Devin and Brenzor's clarifications. I have a list of 15 things I haven't seen official answers for, so I'm hoping they come back soon!
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Darth Ed
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Jacovis wrote:
As for the a cyclops thing, you have to remember each card plays out in its entirety before the next card. So, you play Angel. You decide to discard a card, or not (we are saying yes). Then, you move on to the actual discard. At the time you resolve Cyclops, you no longer have a choice to discard a card, you have to do it.

Yeah, I see what you're saying. You've made a persuasive case.
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Justin H

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You can absolutely combo Angel's cards and Cyclops's. When you play "drop off a friend", you "may" choose to active the ability. When you choose to activate it, you then choose "unending energy" a its target. At that point Angel's card is forcing you to discard Cyclops's.
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Devin Low
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Hi Matt,

Thanks for the question. Knobbly, Penberth, Jacovis, and Justin are correct: Any card effect that causes you to discard Cyclops - Unending Energy or Angel - Diving Catch lets you trigger the ability of that card. For reference:
Quote:
Cyclops - Unending Energy
If a card effect makes you discard this card, you may return this card to your hand.

Quote:
Angel - Diving Catch
When a card effect causes you to discard this card, rescue a Bystander and draw two cards.

Any card text that says the word "discard" can trigger these two cards, including card effects like "Angel - Drop Off a Friend" that let you choose whether to discard at all or let you choose which card to discard.

Unending Energy and Diving Catch both work the same way. Usually that means they would have identical wording. The reason they don't in this case is that similar questions came up during the release of the Legendary base set about Unending Energy saying "make you discard", so we worked to clarify the wording on Diving Catch by saying "causes you to discard."

As long as we're on the topic, here's this section from the Dark City rules insert as well:
Quote:
•“Card Effect”: For Diving Catch and Unending Energy, a “card effect” is anything written on a card. When Bystanders are carried off by Villains, that discard is a game rule, not a card effect, so you can’t use Diving Catch or Unending Energy then.


All the best,

Devin Low meeple
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Devin Low
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Ah, on your question about the Jean Grey cards, Jacovis is correct, with a good reference link: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/10817460

Jean Grey - Mind over Matter says
Quote:
"Whenever you rescue a Bystander this turn, draw a card."

So when you play that card, for the rest of the turn, whenever you rescue a Bystander, you draw a card. It doesn't look back in time before it was played. All card effects that say "Whenever [A] happens this turn, do [B]" look forward this way.

If another card said instead:
"For each Bystander you rescued this turn, draw a card."
then that card would count the Bystanders you had already rescued that turn and wouldn't look forward.

I agree that this is a pretty subtle wording difference. Although most people seem to play both kinds of cards correctly, I probably should have been a little more specific about it in the rulebook. Best wishes,

Devin
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Matt Perron
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Thank you very much for the official rulings.

Love the game! Keep up the great work.
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What about Jean Grey and the Apocalypse Tactic that says "Rescue 6 Bystanders?" Do her cards (if already played) then trigger 6 times? Sorry if that's been answered already; I haven't seen it yet.
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Jacovis
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DiggetyDog46 wrote:
What about Jean Grey and the Apocalypse Tactic that says "Rescue 6 Bystanders?" Do her cards (if already played) then trigger 6 times? Sorry if that's been answered already; I haven't seen it yet.


It has been answered. So long as Jean Grey is out, each time you rescue a bystander you draw a card. With the Apocalypse Tactic you rescue 6 bystanders, drawing a card each time you rescue a bystander, so you draw 6 cards.

You don't need a ruling for every single card that says "rescue a bystander" because Jean Grey says "Whenever you rescue a bystander this turn, draw a card." Which means exactly what it says and Devin just clarified.

Cheers!



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