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Subject: unlimited SOF Raids on Detection Track (20.2.4)? rss

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Rick Altemose
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Would seem to be a no-brainer to allocate all 8 SOF 1st turn Raids (Tactical Surprise) to the Detection Track, then. On the average, this should result in 4 hits, or a pretty good shot of knocking the Allied DT down to 5. If he does worse than 4 hits, he can allocate another 8 SOF missions, if the does better, he can save some for Airbases, but he ought to be able to lower the DET to 1 or 2 on Game Turn 1 without much difficulty.

Since only 2 hits can be repaired per turn, the DPRK should be able to keep the Allied Detection Track low enough that their interceptors NEVER get to intercept and their SAMS are pretty worthless, allowing DPRK bombing missions and close support to procede almost unmolested.

What am I missing?
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rickalt wrote:
Would seem to be a no-brainer to allocate all 8 SOF 1st turn Raids (Tactical Surprise) to the Detection Track, then. On the average, this should result in 4 hits, or a pretty good shot of knocking the Allied DT down to 5. If he does worse than 4 hits, he can allocate another 8 SOF missions, if the does better, he can save some for Airbases, but he ought to be able to lower the DET to 1 or 2 on Game Turn 1 without much difficulty.

Since only 2 hits can be repaired per turn, the DPRK should be able to keep the Allied Detection Track low enough that their interceptors NEVER get to intercept and their SAMS are pretty worthless, allowing DPRK bombing missions and close support to procede almost unmolested.

What am I missing?
This applies to turn 1 only. The DPRK player gets basically 2 SOF phases, the first one with no damage allocation, the second one WITH damage allocation.

That is what you are missing. There is a 50/50 chance you will lose 1/2 of your 8 SOF units.

Subsequent turns have only one SOF phase and have normal damage.
Also, your SOF units are not unlimited. Once gone, they are gone. I imagine by turn 3 you will have very few left (i.e. not enough)with which to shut down the Allied detection capability.

You'll also notice that in the "Extended Build-up" scenario, no such SOF rules for the DPRK player exist. It's a normal SOF turn on turn 1 in that scenario.

Quote:
4. GT 1: On GT 1, during the Special Forces Phase, the DPRK player may conduct two SOF Phases and allocate its Special Forces counters multiple times. Allocate all available counters, resolve the missions (do not roll for survival; all automatically survive), then re-allocate markers and resolve again. Roll for survival as normal.
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Jim McNaughton
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In my first solo play, allocated 4 or 5 special forces to the detection track and they almost all hit. It made the North Korean air farce actually useful!
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Maccyn wrote:
In my first solo play, allocated 4 or 5 special forces to the detection track and they almost all hit. It made the North Korean air farce actually useful!
Exactly. I believe it depicts a necessary consideration for the DPRK player if he/she wants their air force to have any effect.

Rather than being a flaw in the design, it actually highlights to show a reality in planning an invasion of the ROK.
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Dave
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I like the thought behind this because it's good to try and stretch the system to see what it will handle. Sometimes, certain strategies aren't as effective as others. For example, I rarely use my HQ's to strike since combat support is a sure thing and strikes are a gamble.

This game is so deep and there are just so many options that it is great to see someone testing the limits and possibilities of the game.

The main problem I see with devoting (and basically sacrificing) your SOF forces to raids on the enemy's Detection track is that it's a strategy that is supporting the DPRK air force. While that might pay off, your efforts could be completely wasted by one or more turns of bad weather. Storm weather almost completely grounds the DPRK aircraft because they have poor weather capabilites.

I tend to focus my DPRK SOF raids on efforts to degrade the effectiveness of allied air power. I target airfields/airbases , especially those with attack helos, in an effort to destroy or waste the activations of allied air units.

SOF are also useful for Interdiction missions in rough terrain that can take away retreat routes in heavy terrain and trap ROK forces.

I'm also committed to destroying Busan with SCUDs as often as possible, so I'll usually use an SOF or two to Target it.

By the way, I'll be including a review and brief analysis of advanced NWK in our next episode of Advance After Combat, our wargaming podcast. It should be out on Wednesday.
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Rick Altemose
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I don't see the 50% chance of losing half of my 8 SOF units, or are you playing that the -2 modifier to the Survival roll for Tactical Surprise (DPRK GT1 only) applies only to the first "wave" of the two SOF phases in GT1? Not a bad idea, but it seems to make the allocation of all 8 first-wave SOF units to the Detection Track even more of a no-brainer. (Actually, 10, counting the PRC units, giving me an average of 5 hits on the track, knocking it down to 4 with no possibility of any loss at all to my SOF units before the second wave of SOF strikes even starts, half of which can be allocated to air bases, etc).

Hard to know what "realism" means when we're talking about something that hasn't happened, but such drastic degrading of the US/ROK detection capabilities in game terms seems so much more powerful than merely hitting airbases and HQs that, for me, it takes away the fun of deciding what to do with those SOFs on GT1. Take out the US/ROK ability to detect strikes, of course, so I can play with the DPRK's air force. At Detection level 9, the DPRK is crazy to even try to fly bombing or close combat missions.

Oh, by the way, I should have said that I play the Alternate Rule SA 24.3 which allows normal detection of CAS strikes in enemy territory. If you play the standard rules that call for local detection of CAS, then degrading the Allied Detection track is much less important, and therefore much less of a no-brainer.
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Dave
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Well, I guess if you have the free SOF Phase with no chance of losing your SOF teams then it might be a good idea to attack the ROK Detection Track.

Try it out in a game and let us know how it works!
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rickalt wrote:
I don't see the 50% chance of losing half of my 8 SOF units, or are you playing that the -2 modifier to the Survival roll for Tactical Surprise (DPRK GT1 only) applies only to the first "wave" of the two SOF phases in GT1? Not a bad idea, but it seems to make the allocation of all 8 first-wave SOF units to the Detection Track even more of a no-brainer. (Actually, 10, counting the PRC units, giving me an average of 5 hits on the track, knocking it down to 4 with no possibility of any loss at all to my SOF units before the second wave of SOF strikes even starts, half of which can be allocated to air bases, etc).
Yeah, good catch. I was referring to follow-on turns more than the first game turn.

In the first game turn the 1st SOF phase is casualty free, the second is not. That is where the -2/-3 modifier applies if playing either the "Tactical Surprise" or "Strategic Surprise" scenarios respectively.

So, yes, in game turn 1 of either of those two scenarios, the DPRK has a good chance of keeping their SOF alive.

By the way, the DPRK player does not receive these benefits in the "Extended Build-up" scenario.

It would be interesting to see how well your SOF fare in follow-on turns, using your strategy.

And to be clear the DPRK only get 6 SOF in the "Strategic Surprise" scenario (with 8 more as reinforcements through GT7) and 8 in the "Tactical Surprise" scenario (with an additional 6 as reinforcements through GT8). They do not have ANY PRC on GT1.

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Hard to know what "realism" means when we're talking about something that hasn't happened, but such drastic degrading of the US/ROK detection capabilities in game terms seems so much more powerful than merely hitting airbases and HQs that, for me, it takes away the fun of deciding what to do with those SOFs on GT1. Take out the US/ROK ability to detect strikes, of course, so I can play with the DPRK's air force. At Detection level 9, the DPRK is crazy to even try to fly bombing or close combat missions.
Realism as in a realistic planning consideration. You are highlighting some important strategies the DPRK, if it wants a viable airforce on GT1, must consider.

Quote:
The Strategic Surprise Scenario: examines the ROK’s and U.S.’s worst nightmare. In this nightmare, relations between the DPRK and ROK appear amicable. Reunification even appears to be a viable possibility. The U.S. is involved in both internal political navel gazing as well as involved in numerous Global War On Terror actions around the globe. Quietly, however, after the death of Kim Jong Il, a struggle develops within the DPRK political-military landscape. The hard-liners eventually win out and, convincing Kim Jong Un that he must show a strong hand, decide that only unification through force can assure their primacy.

Taking even stricter measures of security and secrecy than before, preparations are made for an out of the barracks assault on the ROK. Minimal logistical buildup is conducted, and the assault will be won, or lost, on the strength of existing stockpiles and whatever can be scraped up in the interim. The strategy depends on a lightning fast offensive, indisputable gains in the field, and mastery of a good portion of the Korean Peninsula before the ROK’s allies, and especially the U.S., can muster enough reinforcing strength to repel them. The DPRK has the potential to achieve Air Superiority in the first few days. Though they are under no illusions of being able to keep it, they hope that it will provide enough of an effect to achieve their aims.

The ROK’s chances of survival are grim. Without the massive aid and reinforcements provided by a fully prepared United States, the qualitative advantage the ROKA has over the NKPA may not be enough to save the country from being completely overrun. They will be fortunate to be able to maintain another Busan Perimeter in the face of modern weaponry and the furious assault to come.
Quote:
Tactical Surprise: This scenario examines a more likely entrance into war as tension mounts on both sides. In this scenario, the fighting erupts after a relatively short time frame of escalating tensions catching the Allies still hoping for a diplomatic solution and not quite ready for actual combat operations.

As its economy continues to languish and falter under the new leadership of Kim Jong Un and food shortages become common, the DPRK imprisons several journalists accusing them of spying for the United States and the ROK. While they are treated humanely, the incident sparks intense diplomatic exchanges as the DPRK bargain for their release by demanding concessions around weapons exports and grain imports. In the meantime, the U.S. Navy seizes and searches a DPRK flagged vessel suspected of carrying an arms shipment to Iran in international waters. The DPRK reacts indignantly to the (technically) illegal search and seizure and increases the amount of rhetoric against both the U.S. and ROK.

Finally, in the straw that breaks the camel’s back, the U.S., Japan, and the ROK conduct massive joint air, land, and sea exercises intended not only to increase the level of cooperation between them but also to cow the DPRK into negotiations. The DPRK reacts publicly by denouncing the exercises and privately by fearing that they are a cover and the prelude to an all-out assault on them. They put into motion their plans for invading the ROK and ending the threat to their sovereignty once and for all.

Under the cover of planning some exercises of their own, the DPRK quietly shifts some of their units around and begin preparations for a general mobilization of reserves. The Allies aren’t exactly caught napping; however, still hoping for a diplomatic solution, they have refrained from moving massive amounts of men and material into the peninsula. Their air power, however, is fully alert and ready.
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Mitchell Land
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Smells like a C3i article to me... :-)
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Dave
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Blackhorse wrote:


And to be clear the DPRK only get 6 SOF in the "Strategic Surprise" scenario (with 8 more as reinforcements through GT7) and 8 in the "Tactical Surprise" scenario (with an additional 6 as reinforcements through GT8). They do not have ANY PRC on GT1.

I actually give the DPRK all of the PRC SOF forces in the beginning of the game if they roll PRC SOF Intervention. I don't see where the PRC SOF units are listed. Not on the PRC reinforcement schedules. I assumed the SOF units listed on the DPRK reinforcement schedules were DPRK SOF units.
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Dave
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Now I need to enlist
Rick Altemose
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to make my HQ support argument with Mitchell.

Attack helos/GS Air add to DRM
ER and terrain shifts columns
And now HQ add combat strength?

Too much to remember!! I propose that HQ still shift 2 columns, but only if they pass an ER test. If they fail, the HQ loses an action, but can try again on the same combat.

This reflects the better commo equipment, fire direction and training of higher ER commands. It also reduces the tremendous combat support the DPRK gets with all of their HQ's. Mitchell, I'm going to wear you down! zombie
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Mitchell Land
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boyinblue1 wrote:
Blackhorse wrote:


And to be clear the DPRK only get 6 SOF in the "Strategic Surprise" scenario (with 8 more as reinforcements through GT7) and 8 in the "Tactical Surprise" scenario (with an additional 6 as reinforcements through GT8). They do not have ANY PRC on GT1.

I actually give the DPRK all of the PRC SOF forces in the beginning of the game if they roll PRC SOF Intervention. I don't see where the PRC SOF units are listed. Not on the PRC reinforcement schedules. I assumed the SOF units listed on the DPRK reinforcement schedules were DPRK SOF units.
Yes, the PRC SOF (all of them) show up when rolled.
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Mitchell Land
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boyinblue1 wrote:
Now I need to enlist
Rick Altemose
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to make my HQ support argument with Mitchell.

Attack helos/GS Air add to DRM
ER and terrain shifts columns
And now HQ add combat strength?

Too much to remember!! I propose that HQ still shift 2 columns, but only if they pass an ER test. If they fail, the HQ loses an action, but can try again on the same combat.

This reflects the better commo equipment, fire direction and training of higher ER commands. It also reduces the tremendous combat support the DPRK gets with all of their HQ's. Mitchell, I'm going to wear you down! zombie
It's possible you might. But I really like playing it that way (the alternate way). I do see what you mean, though, and that's similar to the mechanism in Kasserine, etc.
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Toadkillerdog wrote:
Yes, the PRC SOF (all of them) show up when rolled.
Ahh bugger. I was playing that wrong then! I had PRC SOF show up when the first PRC units are scheduled to arrive as per the reinforcement schedule...

whoops.
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