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Subject: AAAAAARRRGH!! = The rules questions avalanche rss

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Ray Smith
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Is DoA2 that complicated? Are the rules written that poorly? Do ambiguities abound? Is too much open to interpretation?
Do only idiots play DoA2 ?


What the heck is with all the rules questions? Is more time spent trying to figure out how to play than actually playing?

I reeeeealy want to purchase and get into DoA2, but the constant barrage of confusion is discouraging.
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Dave Maxx
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I'm not the designer but I think a game with this amount of variety has many particular instances that raise particular questions. Much like you might find in a minis game.

I do think the rules could have been presented better. The online living rulebook does slightly better than the one in the box.

I think some more examples or a step-by-step tutorial of a few game turns would have helped. Just to walk you through the mechanics of each step.

There's a tutorial at the website but it seems focused on the reinforcement mechanic (it glosses over the turn simply saying characters fight and adventure).

Do I think the game is worth getting? Double-Yes!

I own DOA I and I think this improves the game.

If you love the idea of heroes from across time battling it out in an arena...this game for you. One poster likened it to that classic Star Trek episode, and I agree.

Hope this helps.

D
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King of the Dead
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It's normal for a new game like this.

It's popular and there are a lot of interconnected systems going on.
Totally reasonable that there should be this barrage in the first few weeks as people discover the thousands of combinations of weapons, characters and board positions that are possible in a game of this style.

With this many people asking, and getting great answers directly from the designer, you should be encouraged even more.

I would be discouraged if this game came out and the boards were silent.
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David desJardins
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rdsmith wrote:
I reeeeealy want to purchase and get into DoA2, but the constant barrage of confusion is discouraging.


It's really just BGG, not the game. Think of it this way: if only one person in 100 is confused by a rule, and asks a question about it, there will be hundreds of questions in the forum, even if any individual only has one or two questions. Every new game has this kind of avalanche of questions. DOA will have more because by its nature it is a game of exceptions and interactions. It's really not a hard or confusing game to play. Really.
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Ray Smith
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Nazhuret wrote:
It's normal for a new game like this.

It's popular and there are a lot of interconnected systems going on.
Totally reasonable that there should be this barrage in the first few weeks as people discover the thousands of combinations of weapons, characters and board positions that are possible in a game of this style.


I agree that a new game can have a few questions, but there has been quite a deluge.

I'm not intimidated by any complicated game, as my collection has many. But, my major concern is if the rules clearly address all the issues being raised, or are they all hidden in the rulebook, etc.?
 
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David desJardins
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rdsmith wrote:
I agree that a new game can have a few questions, but there has been quite a deluge.


This is actually a small trickle compared to many of the games I follow on BGG. Really.
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Johan Haglert
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I don't think it's that complicated. Some of my own early questions was before having read anything / trying to make sense of the game. So don't count those. Some of the others is without having read the master rules and in any case I actually don't have the game in my hands so I can't look at all the things and I'm just asking early =P.

I think the rule book was pretty clear and I'd likely have less questions for this game than for instance Battlestar Galactica. Less risk of having to look back into the rules too I think and there's those small player aid cards which I don't really know what they contain to.
(I had quite a few questions for Dungeon Twister to, and that's a simple game. Partly because I was starting with an expansion but also because there's so much environment, items and characters and all of them got their own special rules/abilities. Also I want to make sure about things. I don't want to play "as I think it is" or play it wrong and teach like so.)


And one can learn as one go or read all the rules at once.

What's not super clear / have questions I assume he'll fix in the online rule book so it will be even better with no need for an FAQ page.

I DON'T HAVE THE GAME YET BUT I WILL HAVE IT ON MONDAY. I LIKELY WON'T GET TO PLAY IT UNTIL WEDNESDAY THOUGH BECAUSE PEOPLE=SHIT. I HAVE HOWEVER BEEN EXCITED ABOUT IT AND HANG AROUND IN THE FORUM WAITING FOR EACH AND EVERY SMALL DETAIL AND INFORMATION ABOUT IT =P

Just buy the basic set and try it out. If you don't like it then sell it.

If you buy it from CSI or Miniature market it's not like you're risking much, little over 30 dollar? Mine will cost over 250 dollar + 1000 sleeves so put things in perspective =P



It's almost like you're an idiot for not buying it at 33 dollar
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Johan Haglert
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Roy Batty wrote:
There's a tutorial at the website but it seems focused on the reinforcement mechanic (it glosses over the turn simply saying characters fight and adventure).
That's because it's a reinforcement tutorial. I assume there will be others to.
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Johan Haglert
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rdsmith wrote:
I agree that a new game can have a few questions, but there has been quite a deluge.

I'm not intimidated by any complicated game, as my collection has many. But, my major concern is if the rules clearly address all the issues being raised, or are they all hidden in the rulebook, etc.?
I think one way of answering that is to read the rule book yourself

It's an easy read.
 
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Bryan Watson
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I've newly bought the game (it's sitting back at home while I'm out of town), and am getting real value reading through these dialogs as I also read through the rules. When you have nearly 250 characters and henchmen along with hundreds of other items and guardians all with capabilities that may or may to break the rules or counteract each other, I think this is what you're going to get.

In fact, the layers of complexity are part of what drew me to the game.
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Johan Haglert
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nastywarnob wrote:
I've newly bought the game (it's sitting back at home while I'm out of town), and am getting real value reading through these dialogs as I also read through the rules. When you have nearly 250 characters and henchmen along with hundreds of other items and guardians all with capabilities that may or may to break the rules or counteract each other, I think this is what you're going to get.

In fact, the layers of complexity are part of what drew me to the game.
Yeah. I think the number of questions actually needed because the rule book is weak is / will be very weak. But then there's also 192 characters, 48 henchmen and 398 items and for some of those and their text there may be questions ..

But he's also putting up information with details for those to so that will be explained in better detail as time goes by.

And I think the basic set just had 48 characters and 98 items so you can start with getting those right =P
 
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brendan b
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I have found the rules to be pretty straight forward, for the most part. I like the baby steps approach in the training scenarios.

My wife is in no way an avid gamer, but by the end of the second training scenario, she was completely comfortable with navigating the board and interpreting challenge cards.

Some of the iconography/colors/symbols are still confusing to us, but we're confident we will understand them in due time...especially since we're big RFTG fans.

I've heard Vassal give this game praises for how silly/awesome some of the combinations can be, but I still had to laugh at how tickled my wife was to have William Wallace riding a mountain bike into battle. She was even making the little ringing bell sound as she started to move.

I am falling in love with this game.
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-=::) Dante (::=-
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rdsmith wrote:

I agree that a new game can have a few questions, but there has been quite a deluge.


As others have already stated, it's actually less than most other games with a large player base and with as many variable ability interactions.

Go back and look at the Dominion rules forum and you'll see page after page after page of rules questions in the first few months after it's release.

Have you seen anyone complaining that the rulebooks aren't well thought out and clearly presented?

Every game with this many unique abilities and interactions is going to raise a lot of clarifying questions.

There are countless games that are held back by poor rulebooks. This is not one of them.
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Les Marshall
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David has given you good answers.

A) Is it complicated? Compared to Settlers of Cataan-Yes. Compared to the typical wargame-Not at all.

B) Are the rules written poorly? Yes and No. The rule book included in the game presents the rules in sections with learning scenarios. It assumes you will start with a basic melee scenario, then a ranged weapon scenario and then a conjoint base assault with melee and shooting. Other map elements are introduced with advanced scenarios. If you follow this flow, you should absorb the rules quite easily.

On the other hand, if you take the average advanced gamer, we like to tackle more complex scenarios from the get go. In that case, the rules are not well organized to find information. You need to download the pdf set of rules which are quite a bit longer but better organized to find the relevant section.

C) Ambiguities and Interpretation? I have been reviewing the questions posed in the game forum and have found most of them readily answered in the rules. I played my first game of DoAII on Friday and found no problem using the printed rule book. The only real sore spot for me was the absence of a tiebreaker (our group loathes tied games).

The area of the rules prone to the most difficulty is the op fire section. However this is the section which receives the greatest attention with multiple illustrated examples.

In short, I would have organized the rules differently but, considering the depth of interaction, these rules are actually fairly well written.
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Bryan Watson
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aliquis wrote:

And I think the basic set just had 48 characters and 98 items so you can start with getting those right =P


Ha! It's a little late for me. EVERYTHING IS ALREADY MIXED TOGETHER!!!
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Johan Haglert
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nastywarnob wrote:
aliquis wrote:

And I think the basic set just had 48 characters and 98 items so you can start with getting those right =P


Ha! It's a little late for me. EVERYTHING IS ALREADY MIXED TOGETHER!!!
You was supposed to be OP as in original poster .. or TS as in thread starter.
 
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Dennis Gadgaard
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Compared to a game like Netrunner, there has really been very few rules questions. I guess people are just really anxious to get it right.
Ask away, I say.
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Aaron Bohm
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Start with Trial 1 - Face Off and work your way through the missions.

You shouldn't have any questions (aside from maybe LOS issues) until Opfire in Storming.

I've taught this game now to 2 different groups of people and was taught by someone who knew the game very well also from that standpoint I haven't had too many issues. If you are a group of beginners with no one to teach you, starting with the first missions is a good bet and shouldn't trip you up very often.
 
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Ray Smith
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Even after reading the rules, without playing I was unsure if they were complete.
NuMystic wrote:
There are countless games that are held back by poor rulebooks. This is not one of them.

That's all I wanted to know!
I'm in. meeple
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Brett Murrell
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Now that Ray has made his decision without interference...

Ray, many of the questions fall into the realm of either reassurance or assumption. To date, there are no rules changes or changes to any special ability, etc. Do not expect any in the future. DoA II has been playtested to a significant degree for three years.

Many of the frequenters here are former DoA I players who are in the process of eating the whole DoA II enchilada -- Basic and Master -- in one sitting. Many of their questions are simply reassurances that they do indeed have something right, or they have thought of a possible special ability combination which might raise uncertainties.

The Basic Set is specially designed to carefully lead someone through the learning process at a very gradual pace. If you have concerns about learning the game properly and you are new to it, follow that path and leave the Master Set alone until you are comfortable. You should find it a comfortable stroll.

Brett
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Brian Barnes
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rdsmith wrote:
Is DoA2 that complicated? Are the rules written that poorly? Do ambiguities abound? Is too much open to interpretation?
Do only idiots play DoA2 ?


What the heck is with all the rules questions? Is more time spent trying to figure out how to play than actually playing?

I reeeeealy want to purchase and get into DoA2, but the constant barrage of confusion is discouraging.


Ray, looking at your games, you'll have no problem. Most of the questions asked are simply in the rules. I've taught 4 new people and we haven't had a problem just having a blast with it.
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Ray Smith
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Thanks for all the confirmations! The response was overwhelming (to what I thought was a simple question). blush
The passion for DoA(1&2) has always been evident, and I greatly look forward to giving it a go.



Now, about Up Front and Katalyka . . . . .
shake
 
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Johan Haglert
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rdsmith wrote:
Thanks for all the confirmations! The response was overwhelming (to what I thought was a simple question). blush
The passion for DoA(1&2) has always been evident, and I greatly look forward to giving it a go.



Now, about Up Front and Katalyka . . . . .
shake
Katalyka? Not sure how you mean.
 
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Scott Aikens
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I never played the original DoA. I hadn't even heard of DoA2 until 10 days ago, but made my decision to buy the Basic and Master sets based almost solely on the early game discussions in the BGG threads -- especially the rules questions, which have been answered so promptly and thoroughly by Brett and other informed posters.

I cracked the seal on my Basic set late last night, and have already completed the first two tutorials. My pal the Stevedore saw the game for the first time this afternoon and happily served as my worthy opponent at the drop of a hat.

Halfway through the second tutorial we laughed at how much fun we were having and how quickly we were adapting to the flow of the game. (We agreed that we could easily enjoy playing only these two very simple scenarios several more times, and reveled at how much more of the game awaited us in future sessions.)

If you play the game you will have inevitably have a few questions of your own, but none of them will spoil the sheer fun of the DoA experience for you. Best of all, the answers to your questions can likely be found right here in these threads.
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Robert Davis
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I started wargaming close to 50 years ago. From 1999 until early 2012, I played Advancd Squad Leader almost exclusively. Then, early last year I began exploring board games. I had never heard of DoA until I saw a pop up ad on BGG a few weeks ago. After reading the details, I made the decision to jump in for everything. I've now played the first training scenario. At first I was a little awkward with using cards to resolve encounters and combat, but once I got accustomed to that, things went smoothly, and was incredibly enjoyable. I am now ready to start the second training scenario, and am excited just thinking about it.

This is, IMHO, a very fresh game with incredible variability and replayability. It is clearly going to be one of the top games in my collection.
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