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Brass: Lancashire» Forums » Rules

Subject: Question regarding links rss

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Martin Sjöstrand
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I just want to make sure I have understood this correctly. Is the following true?

1) Getting iron requires no links whether there are some on the board you can take or from the distant market (if there are none on the board).

2) Getting coal requires links but it does not matter if it's your own or another players as long as you can reach a coal mine on the board (or a port to get coal from the distant market).

3) When playing an industry card to build an industry you can only use your own links, i.e. the location where you want to build the building in must be able to be tracked back to an industry you have already built and any link between those two locations must be your own. (Only if you have built no buildings yet can an industry card be used to build in any location.)

Edit:
4) When building a link you can build it in any location where you can back track all connections to one of your own buildings. These connections/links can be of any player.
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Chris Ferejohn
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Marty78 wrote:
I just want to make sure I have understood this correctly. Is the following true?

1) Getting iron requires no links whether there are some on the board you can take or from the distant market (if there are none on the board).
Correct. Iron teleports, just like in real life.

Quote:
2) Getting coal requires links but it does not matter if it's your own or another players as long as you can reach a coal mine on the board (or a port to get coal from the distant market).
Correct, though note it has to be a constructed (though not necessarily flipped) port. Also, the "distant market" areas at the "edges" of the board also connect you to the distant market.

Quote:
3) When playing an industry card to build an industry you can only use your own links, i.e. the location where you want to build the building in must be able to be tracked back to an industry you have already built and any link between those two locations must be your own. (Only if you have built no buildings yet can an industry card be used to build in any location.)
Well, effectively yes, but easier to think of it as "you can build any place that has a link connected or where you already have an industry". (With the caveat that you can only build multiple industries in the same place in the train phase).

Quote:
Edit:
4) When building a link you can build it in any location where you can back track all connections to one of your own buildings. These connections/links can be of any player.

No. You can build a connection from anywhere where a) you have buildings or b) you have a link already connected.
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Martin Sjöstrand
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cferejohn wrote:
"you can build any place that has a link connected or where you already have an industry".
So 3 and 4 has the same ruling?

When you say "any place that has a link connected" you mean "any place that has a link THAT YOU OWN connected", right? But what if you have a connection to a location where you have no industries can you keep adding links to that connection without the need to have to build in every location you pass prior to building a connection any further?

Edit: Hmm, I think I got it now. The reason one only need to check the 2 cases (a. got an industry in the location, b. has an own link connected) is that you only ever can keep building on your own connections so you automatically know they are connected to an industry you own.
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J
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I'm going to expand on the answers a bit.

1. Correct and you are also correct that you can only take from the distant market when there is none on the board. No cheating your neighbors now.

2. Correct again but again you must take from the board first if able and can only take from the distant market if you are connected to a port symbol (a port symbol is a built port regardless if it's flipped or not and who built it or one of the 3 distant cities in the north south or east)

3. No, what you said here is not technically correct. We use a term called "presence". In order to build an industry (not your first) in a city using an industry card you must have "presence" where "presence" is a canal leading to the city, a rail leading to the city or an industry built in the city. As a reminder you can only build more than 1 industry in a city during the rail era.

Your statement that:
"i.e. the location where you want to build the building in must be able to be tracked back to an industry you have already built and any link between those two locations must be your own."


is technically NOT correct and I'll explain why at the end.

4. No, you may only build a link if you have "presence" in at least one of the two cities your building the link between.

Marty78 wrote:

When you say "any place that has a link connected" you mean "any place that has a link THAT YOU OWN connected", right? But what if you have a connection to a location where you have no industries can you keep adding links to that connection without the need to have to build in every location you pass prior to building a connection any further?
Yes in order to get presence it must be your own link, otherwise no one would ever both building canals. Also when your presence is from a link all that matter is that you have a link to the city. It makes no difference it's relationship to industries.


Quote:
Edit: Hmm, I think I got it now. The reason one only need to check the 2 cases (a. got an industry in the location, b. has an own link connected) is that you only ever can keep building on your own connections so you automatically know they are connected to an industry you own.
Sadly this is not correct which is why you should discard any notion that "presence" is some how related to connection to your own industries. The reason you only need to check the 2 cases (a. got an industry in the location, b. has an own link connected) is because that's the only thing that determines "presence". There is an edge case that would indeed allow you to have a link that you could not trace back to one of your industries.

If you build a link using a Coal Mine or an Iron mill in one of the cities as your source of "presence" it is possible for another player to overbuild your Coal Mine or an Iron mill leaving your link not connected/traceable to an industry you own however you may still use the link as a source of "presence" for building other links off of or building in the cities it's connected to.
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Chris Ferejohn
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Good point on the edge case. Yeah, as allstar64 said don't worry about "tracing back" to an industry - it doesn't matter. Just see if the city you want to build in/from currently has one of your industries or tracks built in/into it. (And to be repetitive you can't have more than 1 industry per city in the canal phase).
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Well-Dressed Donkey
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cferejohn wrote:
Iron teleports, just like in real life.
In Lancashire we have things called "roads", tha knahs! shake
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Martin Sjöstrand
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Thanks everyone for your answers.

I'm just wondering if this means that you always have "presence" in Birkenhead and Liverpool then, due to the virtual link?
 
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Martin Sjöstrand
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Marty78 wrote:
Thanks everyone for your answers.

I'm just wondering if this means that you always have "presence" in Birkenhead and Liverpool then, due to the virtual link?
With a bit of investigation I'm actually trying to answer this one myself, then you can just answer if it's correct or not.

The virtual link only effects Birkenhead and not Liverpool. You don't have any "presence" in Liverpool with it, but you do have some kind of "presence" in Birkenhead from the get-go. It does not work as a regular connection though since it can only be used for one single thing and that is to be able to build a ship in Birkenhead with an industy card. This will still require that there is a regular rail connection between Birkenhead and a coal mine though. That connection can have been built by any player, and so can the coal mine of course.
 
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J
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In all honesty I think the virtual link is pretty stupid. What you said isn't completely right. All the virtual link does is allows someone with presence in Liverpool but not Birkenhead use a shipyard industry card to build a shipyard in Birkenhead.

Whether it works in reverse I don't know nor do I care cause I've never seen Birkenhead be built before Liverpool was filled.

The reason the virtual link is so ungodly stupid is because it adds a non-standard special rule which should never be relevant to any of your games. The reason it's never relevant is because even if you have presence in Birkenhead you cannot build a shipyard there unless it's connected to coal and the only (realistic) reason to connect Birkenhead to coal is so you can build a shipyard there. Hence the turn a player connects Birkenhead to coal they should immediately build the shipyard there or risk another player taking it themselves. You can always discard 2 cards for a wild card action so no matter what you are always in danger of someone taking it from you if you connect it but neglect to build the shipyard.
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Martin Sjöstrand
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Thanks again allstar64.
 
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Bryan Thunkd
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Marty78 wrote:
1) Getting iron requires no links whether there are some on the board you can take or from the distant market (if there are none on the board).
Yes. Iron teleports. Or as someone else suggested, think of it as technological innovation. You are paying for research.

Marty78 wrote:
2) Getting coal requires links but it does not matter if it's your own or another players as long as you can reach a coal mine on the board (or a port to get coal from the distant market).
Yes... but I quibble with the "doesn't matter if it's your own or another players" as it makes a difference in terms of whose mine will flip first, or whether you have to pay for the coal (if it comes from the ports).

But yes, if there is any canal/railroad route to any coal, it's available to you. The route doesn't have to be yours and it doesn't even to have to be any one player's route. If it takes three player's canals to get there it's still valid.

Marty78 wrote:
3) When playing an industry card to build an industry you can only use your own links, i.e. the location where you want to build the building in must be able to be tracked back to an industry you have already built and any link between those two locations must be your own. (Only if you have built no buildings yet can an industry card be used to build in any location.)
If you do not have the appropriate city card, you will need either a) a route of your own into the city and the appropriate industry card or b) two cards of any type, to build that industry in that city

Marty78 wrote:
Edit:
4) When building a link you can build it in any location where you can back track all connections to one of your own buildings. These connections/links can be of any player.
No. When building a route, it must build off of either a building of yours, or an existing route of yours.
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Gar Per
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ldsdbomber wrote:
allstar64 wrote:
In all honesty I think the virtual link is pretty stupid. What you said isn't completely right. All the virtual link does is allows someone with presence in Liverpool but not Birkenhead use a shipyard industry card to build a shipyard in Birkenhead.

ONLY if there is also a route to Birkenhead via Ellesmere Port that can transport coal there physically.

If there is no link to Birkenhead there, no one can build the shipyard there, regardless of Liverpool presence

Its just meant to represent the proximity of the areas and Birkenhead being part of Liverpool but that you cant lug huge amounts of coal on the ferry over the river. Its quirky, but kind of cute, and in all honesty is not a problem once youve played a handful of times

theorderofthehammer.com is a great place to learn and try it out, look me up under "LAMBOLT" I start quite a lot of games over there regularly
I always understood the virtual link to exist because otherwise you could build the only link into Birkenhead and "reserve" the shipyard to build later or just block it off. The virtual link allows someone else a way in. I realize BiF has the same issue and no virtual link, it is just what I heard. (I suppose since there are 2 industry spaces, it is possible for 2 people to exist with presence at BiF though)

If you think if it with that reasoning, the rule makes perfect sense. It explains why it doesn't go both ways, why you can't move coal, etc - because the only reason for it is to create a backdoor into Birkenhead.
 
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nate_lockhart wrote:

I always understood the virtual link to exist because otherwise you could build the only link into Birkenhead and "reserve" the shipyard to build later or just block it off. The virtual link allows someone else a way in. I realize BiF has the same issue and no virtual link, it is just what I heard. (I suppose since there are 2 industry spaces, it is possible for 2 people to exist with presence at BiF though)

If you think if it with that reasoning, the rule makes perfect sense. It explains why it doesn't go both ways, why you can't move coal, etc - because the only reason for it is to create a backdoor into Birkenhead.
You may always use your turn to discard 2 cards for a wild card action meaning that even if the virtual link did not exist and both Birkenhead location cards were discarded building the rail to Birkenhead but not the shipyard is still extraordinarily risky. The discard wild card action means that no matter what people will always have a backdoor into Birkenhead. Thus even if the virtual link didn't exsist no one should ever build the rail connecting Birkenhead to caol without building the shipyard as well or they risk someone wild carding their way in which is why I see the virtual link as being completely pointless.

Anyway the game already allows you to reserve Birkenhead by building Ellesmere port and the rail from Ellesmere port to Warrington and Runcorn which is something I do all the time.
 
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Gar Per
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allstar64 wrote:
nate_lockhart wrote:

I always understood the virtual link to exist because otherwise you could build the only link into Birkenhead and "reserve" the shipyard to build later or just block it off. The virtual link allows someone else a way in. I realize BiF has the same issue and no virtual link, it is just what I heard. (I suppose since there are 2 industry spaces, it is possible for 2 people to exist with presence at BiF though)

If you think if it with that reasoning, the rule makes perfect sense. It explains why it doesn't go both ways, why you can't move coal, etc - because the only reason for it is to create a backdoor into Birkenhead.
You may always use your turn to discard 2 cards for a wild card action meaning that even if the virtual link did not exsist and both Birkenhead location cards were discarded building the rail to Birkenhead but not the shipyard is still extraordinarily risky. The discard wild card action means that no matter what people will always have a backdoor into Birkenhead. Thus even if the virtual link didn't exsist no one should ever build the rail connecting Birkenhead to caol without building the shipyard as well or they risk someone wild carding their way in which is why I see the virtual link as being completely pointless.

Anyway the game already allows you to reserve Birkenhead by building Elmherst port and the rail from Elmherst port to Warrington and Runcorn which is something I do all the time.
Good point on the 2 card action. All I can say is was that was how it was explained. I neither made up the rule nor the explanation. Perhaps they felt there need to be ANOTHER option to compete for Birkenhead (and not AN option like I said).

I don't see how you can block Birkenhead in the way you describe though. Virtual link, 2 card action, all that.
 
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nate_lockhart wrote:

I don't see how you can block Birkenhead in the way you describe though. Virtual link, 2 card action, all that.
Take a look at the following picture.



Suppose that I have built the port in Ellesmere port and the Link Highlighted in Green. This link is the rail from Ellesmere port to Warrington and Runcorn that I mentioned above.

Doing so has practically guaranteed that no one else other than me will ever be able to build the Rail from Ellesmere port to Birkenhead highlighted in purple. The only other possible way for someone to get presence in Ellesmere Port is by building the rails highlighted in red (technically the rail from Stockport to Macclesfield can be built by someone else but from experience this is not that common).

The rails highlighted in red are pretty low scoring, do not connect to good cities and would cost a minimum of 20 but more realistically 30+ to build. Further trying to sneak into Ellesmere Port like that would not be sneaking at all as it would be as clear as day what you were trying to do and I would quickly build the shipyard before you got there as soon as I saw you trying it.

Hence by building Ellesmere Port and the rail highlighted in green I've basically taken complete control over Birkenhead and I would be in complete control of deciding when the rail highlighted in purple gets built and you can bet I'm not building it unless I'm getting the shipyard in the same turn.
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Ed Chen

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Blocking Birkenhead can actually be huge strategically. It's usually the case that both Barrow and London can't be both swept at once. When you secure Birkenhead you strongly discourage others from going shipyards, because they'll do a ton of work to get EITHER AND ONLY London or Barrow, while you get the other, and then take Birkenhead at your leisure (usually on the last turn when all the other high scoring options are gone).

And because of that you can often take your time getting your other shipyard as well, since you can wait to get your first shipyard until someone develops away their level 0 and 1 shipyards to pose a threat.

Also as only a slight tangent, it's also possible to block Barrow, though much more difficult.

A lot of people who don't play a lot of shipyards don't take into the account that you can sometimes defer your shipyard building until the late rounds where other people are fighting for 3 and 4 point rail links.
 
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