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Subject: Powers Contesting Tunis in 1532 rss

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John Doe
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For those who play the 1532 scenario, which powers usually contest for Tunis and which power is usually successful in claiming it?
 
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Max DuBoff
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Oftentimes the only power that really has the time and resources to take Tunis is the Ottomans. Since the Hapsburgs usually want to go for Metz and electorates, I, as the Ottomans, sometimes make a white peace with the Hapsburgs (since immediately trying for Vienna is too risky) and capture Tunis. Since Tunis is hard to reach, the chances are good that Pttomans who take it can keep it for the rest of the game. I suppose France could try but he would need more ships, and he has other things to worry about (namely Milan). I suppose the Hapsburgs could try for Metz if they really felt like it, but they would probably give France Metz the next turn without a fight. (Also, some aggressive Hapsburgs and/or Pope go for Milan the first turn of the scenario. NOTE: this may not apply in the tournament scenario (23 VPs to win) because the Hapsburgs sometimes get to 23 or 24 by taking some electorates. This definitely applies in the full '32 scenario though.
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Max DuBoff
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UpstateGamer wrote:
You risk the Hapsburgs winning on the first turn if they roll well in the New World.
I totally agree, but rushing at Vienna by SDing the starting force to Buda is also ill-advised. The Hapsburgs need to take at least a couple electorates to win, especially since the Prots will probably take one or two in the first turn of the scenario.
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Thomas Ting
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Electorates only earn the Hapsburgs 1 VP apiece; they're very expensive compared to discoveries or even conquests

It's more the Hapsburgs preventing the Protestants from winning outright than anything else which requires the Haps to take Protestant electorates.

=====

Reagrding Tunis vs Vienna...

Otts are much better off going for Vienna than Tunis. You generally spend more CP moving your troops to Tunis, and you can't leverage your massive army because you're just moving 5 troops at a time (not an issue against the Tunis garrison, but a big issue if there's another army already there...).

More importantly, winning Vienna lets you then march up to Prague, whereas there really isn't any further target after Tunis. A good Ottoman player aims to take both Vienna and Prague on the same turn.

Finally, rushing to Vienna is NOT at all ill-advised. Here's the real math:

Suleiman will Spring Deploy 6 troops to Buda, which will have 4 additional troops. That's 10 troops with 2 leadership to roll 12 dice.

The Hapsburg defense by this point consists of 6 troops, and Ferdinand. With 1 leadership and 1 defense they will only be rolling 8 dice assuming a field battle.

On average rolls (without Jannissaries) you will decimate the Hapsburg army in Vienna and leave only 2 survivors for the siege. And you can do this before the Hapsburgs can even react, denying them the possibility of recruiting more troops to defend Vienna.

Other things that favor an immediate assault:

1) The Haps can recruit in Vienna. You can't recruit in Buda. Putting Vienna immediately under siege prevents them from starting to build up in Vienna (although they can still do it from adjacent spaces, but now they are limited by leadership to move those troops around AND they need to spend CP).

Denying the space for recruitment alone (and bottling up Ferdinand inside the city) is a very good reason to risk attacking immediately; because the Haps will either be forced to move Charles V to the East (where you have the opportunity to clobber him if he didn't build up first) and give up on any designs in the West, or to give up Vienna while Charles V stays in the West.

2) The card advantage may never be as good as on Turn 1; because the Haps don't start with active conquests (only a depleted one).

Obviously though if the Haps get lucky and get cards off both their colonies then reconsider an immediate assault; but in general the Haps should not have a major card advantage over you (if any).

3) If you're really lucky and have Roxelanna, you might even just take Vienna outright on Impulse 1 of Turn 1 as you follow up the field battle win with an immediate assault. And again, this is all before the Hapsburgs get an impulse to react.

====

Finally, to the OP....

Any power with a fleet in the Med can go for Tunis. Heck, I've seen the French sneak into Tunis once for the win. The likeliest to get it though are probably the Haps or the Otts - both should be constantly having fleets around the Med for piracy and anti-piracy.
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Max DuBoff
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Thomas, the Ottomans should only rush into Vienna if they feel like wrecking their game.

A few points to consider:

1. CSR: Belgrade starts with exactly one Ottoman troop. It is HIGHLY vulnerable to City States Rebel (to cut off Ottoman LOC), so much so that I try to reinforce it on my first impulse as the Ottoman. Heck, I'd be willing to pay a nice sum as the Hapsburgs to have CSR played, and another player who sees the aggressive Ottomans rush for Vienna might be tempted with some nice bribe money.

2. Hand size: The Hapsburgs have a decent card advantage over the Ottomans. Even if the Ottomans rush to Vienna, who's to say that Charles V won't sneak through Agram into Belgrade at the end of the turn, thus cutting off Ottoman LOC entirely and suspending all Ottoman operation while leaving the Ottoman heartland pitifully vulnerable? Who's to say Charles V won't recruit an even bigger force (aided by the fact that the Ottomans cannot play a card like Mercenaries Bribed) and crush the Ottomans? (I'd rather take Belgrade though.) Your plan also foolishly leaves Buda open.

3. Recruits: Unless the Ottoman player luckily drew Foreign Recruits, he is totally cut off from fresh troops while in Vienna. The Hapsburgs will win the war of attrition EVERY TIME.

4. Risk: If this fails, the Ottomans may just give the Hapsburgs the game, since the Hapsburgs can easily grab the lightly defended keys like Salonika, Edirne, and Athens.

5. Alternatives: What about deploying to Nezh, building up a few troops, and then marching on the capital? That seems much less risky.

6. Vengeance: If you attack the Hapsburgs from the get-go, they will be out for your blood--and possibly your skulls too if they have any available wall space. The Hapsburgs will suspend their efforts in Eastern France and/or Italy and entirely focus on the Balkans. A power almost never wants to/can handle the full force of the Hapsburgs' empire. The Hapsburgs simply have more resources at their disposal.

The Ottomans just cannot afford to lose their forces so early. Believe me--I've been beaten trying to quickly snag Vienna by a few people, most notably last year's WBC champion.
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Thomas Ting
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MD1616 wrote:
Thomas, the Ottomans should only rush into Vienna if they feel like wrecking their game.
That's their job; and they need to do it well to win.

Quote:
A few points to consider:

1. CSR: Belgrade starts with exactly one Ottoman troop. It is HIGHLY vulnerable to City States Rebel (to cut off Ottoman LOC), so much so that I try to reinforce it on my first impulse as the Ottoman. Heck, I'd be willing to pay a nice sum as the Hapsburgs to have CSR played, and another player who sees the aggressive Ottomans rush for Vienna might be tempted with some nice bribe money.
I would not cry over "City States Rebel", and actually in my setup Buda is the better choice because the immediate assault leaves it undefended.

Quote:
2. Hand size: The Hapsburgs have a decent card advantage over the Ottomans. Even if the Ottomans rush to Vienna, who's to say that Charles V won't sneak through Agram into Belgrade at the end of the turn, thus cutting off Ottoman LOC entirely and suspending all Ottoman operation while leaving the Ottoman heartland pitifully vulnerable? Who's to say Charles V won't recruit an even bigger force (aided by the fact that the Ottomans cannot play a card like Mercenaries Bribed) and crush the Ottomans? (I'd rather take Belgrade though.) Your plan also foolishly leaves Buda open.
They don't. You clearly didn't do the math. Both get 5 apiece. The Haps MAY get two more from colonies, but on average rolls that's just one more card.

Quote:
3. Recruits: Unless the Ottoman player luckily drew Foreign Recruits, he is totally cut off from fresh troops while in Vienna. The Hapsburgs will win the war of attrition EVERY TIME.
This is silly. Your inability to recruit from Hungarian spaces remains REGARDLESS if you attack or not. Meanwhile, not besieging Vienna immediately leave the Haps to build up there.

An immediate attack on Vienna does NOTHING to change the Ottoman's recruiting difficulties. It does, however, make the Hapsburg's recruitng options more difficult. You clearly are not reading what I said in favor of nonesensical tangents.

Quote:
4. Risk: If this fails, the Ottomans may just give the Hapsburgs the game, since the Hapsburgs can easily grab the lightly defended keys like Salonika, Edirne, and Athens.
Yeah, sure, an army of 6 will totally annihilate an army of 10 and then with 5 cards he can march all the way to Salonika.

Quote:
5. Alternatives: What about deploying to Nezh, building up a few troops, and then marching on the capital? That seems much less risky.
A half-measure that gets you nothing, really. That leaves you 3 CP away from Buda in case the Hapsburgs decide to attack; and it does nothing to prevent Belgrade from being City State Rebelled anyway which you're so scared of.

If you're building up for an army for the next turn, build them in Istanbul so they can be picked up for the next Spring Deploy. But keep Suleiman's army where it will actually matter - in Hungary. Anything less is just handing the Hapsburgs a favor.

Quote:
6. Vengeance: If you attack the Hapsburgs from the get-go, they will be out for your blood--and possibly your skulls too if they have any available wall space. The Hapsburgs will suspend their efforts in Eastern France and/or Italy and entirely focus on the Balkans. A power almost never wants to/can handle the full force of the Hapsburgs' empire. The Hapsburgs simply have more resources at their disposal.
My response to the above pussy-footing? Bring it on. The simple fact of the matter is that the Ottomans win or lose by fighting the Hapsburgs. If you'r scared to fight the Hapsburgs unless everything is going in your favor, you're not going to win the game. You cannot be McClellan as the Ottomans.

Quote:
The Ottomans just cannot afford to lose their forces so early. Believe me--I've been beaten trying to quickly snag Vienna by a few people, most notably last year's WBC champion.
... And note how good players actually do beat you...

Care to describe how you did your "quick snag" on an impulse by impulse basis? Did you send an army of 10 to Vienna or did you wait? Did you just sit around in Vienna even as he sent smaller spoiling forces to your rear to try and cut off your LOCs?

An immediate assault on Vienna favors the Ottomans no matter who is playing on the other side. Not saying it can't be done; but if the Ottomans play badly subsequently or the Hapsburgs get lucky they can break the siege.
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Thomas Ting
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UpstateGamer wrote:
Going straight for Vienna worked well enough for the Ottomans in the scenario book's example of play.

That said, in a recent FTF game, I was the Hapsburgs. The Ottomans came for Vienna on both the first and second turns, and I beat them back both times, using cheap mercenaries. I won on turn 2 (Metz, Venice through Diplomatic Marriage, and 3 New World VP).
That's why the attack should be done on Impulse 1 of Turn 1 - before the Haps can build any mercenaries; where you try to catch and destroy as much of the Hapsburg field army as possible.

As the Haps the best play I can come up with in response to this is to leave two guys out to die, and send 4 troops + Ferdinand into the city (I'm assuming I fail my avoid battle roll here because the Ottomans have cavalry). Then use the Hapsburg Home card to build up 4 Mercs to attack the Ottoman army.

That's still an 8 vs 10 fight in favor of the Otts; but if your "forlorn hope" was lucky then the odds may be much more even. Waiting for the Otts to assault and then attack the weakened Ottoman may not be an option; because as the Otts I would work to quickly crush any relief force even if it means abandoning the siege for an impulse.
 
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Max DuBoff
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Zinegata wrote:
... And note how good players actually do beat you...
Yeah, when I was still enough of a beginner to be stupid enough to attack Vienna on my first impulse! If "pussy-footing" is what's required to win, I'll happily do it. But I'm not dumb enough to wreck my game 9 times out of 10 because because a reckless attack will work 1/10 of the time.
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Petri P
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Zinegata wrote:
That's why the attack should be done on Impulse 1 of Turn 1 - before the Haps can build any mercenaries; where you try to catch and destroy as much of the Hapsburg field army as possible.

As the Haps the best play I can come up with in response to this is to leave two guys out to die, and send 4 troops + Ferdinand into the city (I'm assuming I fail my avoid battle roll here because the Ottomans have cavalry). Then use the Hapsburg Home card to build up 4 Mercs to attack the Ottoman army.
You can't do that. See 13.4, the third bullet:

"13.4 Withdrawing into Fortifications

Enemy units in the destination space may withdraw inside fortifications in Step 7 of the movement procedure if the following conditions are all met:

• the destination space is fortified,
• the enemy power (or an ally of the enemy power) controls the destination space,
• there were 4 or fewer units (plus any number of army leaders) present in the space after interception and avoid battle attempts were resolved"

I.e. if an army cannot fully fit inside the fortification, it must offer field battle. After the battle up to 4 survivors can retreat to the fortification, with leaders also allowed to accompany them.
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