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Subject: The case of the seven American bottle water cops who attacked the car of the sorority girl rss

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Chris R.
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When a 20-year-old "University of Virginia student had just bought some bottled water, cookie dough and ice cream for a sorority fundraiser ... a group of people in plainclothes approached her car (at 10:15 at night). One person jumped on her hood, another pulled a gun on her, and the student, logically, began trying to drive her car as fast as she could out of the parking lot. Unfortunately for the student, the people attacking her car were state Alcoholic Beverage Control officers, who mistook her purchase of LaCroix sparkling water for a 12-pack of beer."

http://gawker.com/sorority-girl-buying-bottled-water-ends-up...

...

"They were showing unidentifiable badges after they approached us, but we became frightened, as they were not in anything close to a uniform," Elizabeth Daly, 20, wrote about the April incident. "I couldn't put my windows down unless I started my car, and when I started my car they began yelling to not move the car, not to start the car. They began trying to break the windows. My roommates and I were ... terrified."

The women dialed 911. As a reward the sorority girl was arrested and charged with three felonies -- for buying bottled water as the "bottle water cops" are too stupid to identify products and know how to do their job correctly.

The sorority girl was already on edge as she had just recently attended a "Take Back the Night" vigil on campus -- where women had shared stories of their experiences with sexual assault.

The district attorney stands by the conduct of the "bottle water cops".

"jumped on her hood"?
"pulled a gun on her"?
"began trying to break the windows"?

"Charlottesville Commonwealth's Attorney Dave Chapman read Daly's account and said it was factually consistent."

Alcoholic Beverage Control officers? Don't we already have the ATF? I guess this is a Virginia thing...

Seven plainclothes officers of the law at one time are needed for this stupid pretend job?
I think these guys have been watching too many cop shows.
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Joseph
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I'm not stalking you Chris, I'm really not.

The ABC officers version of the incident.

http://www.dailyprogress.com/news/local/abc-says-it-s-review...

Apparently she was approached by a female officer. The other agents didn't join in until she was not cooperating with that first officer.

Makes you wonder, at least it makes me wonder, if the guy who jumped on her hood was actually one of the two agents she hit with her car?

 
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David desJardins
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Too bad she wasn't armed so that she could exercise her Second Amendment right to shoot anyone whose badge she doesn't recognize.
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Haha! You really got those Second Amendment fans that time, Dave!

BAZINGA
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ElCid91 wrote:
I'm not stalking you Chris, I'm really not.

The ABC officers version of the incident.

http://www.dailyprogress.com/news/local/abc-says-it-s-review...

Apparently she was approached by a female officer. The other agents didn't join in until she was not cooperating with that first officer.

Makes you wonder, at least it makes me wonder, if the guy who jumped on her hood was actually one of the two agents she hit with her car?
I don't know.

The previous day's article stated:

"Charlottesville Commonwealth's Attorney Dave Chapman read Daly's account and said it was factually consistent."

http://www.dailyprogress.com/news/bottled-water-purchase-lea...

...

Your article states, "One of the men ... drew a gun."

Hmm. All this for bottled water?

... "Our panic heightened."

Really?

They wouldn't have sounded like law enforcement to me. Many cops never fire their weapon in their careers except maybe once or something. I don't know what the frequency is of taking guns out of holsters. Perhaps that is much more frequent.

I almost wonder why the bottled water cops need weapons. You are really going to shoot to kill over a can of beer? What's next? Armed truant officers threatening to shoot a kid for not attending school?
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sikeospi wrote:
Your article states, "One of the men ... drew a gun."

Hmm. All this for bottled water?
She hit the officers with her car. That is a pretty serious threat. I can understand why they would draw their weapons.
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Fact - if students were actually taught what their Constitutional rights are and how to effectively exercise them then law enforcement of all kinds would have to respect the rights of citizens. I've recently posted the "never talk to police" video by law professor James Duane, but here are some more that might surprise those of you who think people who want to remain unmolested by the police are weird. What's weird and tyrannical are law enforcement agents who willingly take advantage of the ignorance of Americans... and end up acting illegally, and stupidly.

First, the DHS -



Cappy and his fellow whack jobs who want to just bend over and get anally reamed because he fears guns will enjoy this one -



People who own weapons may make some people uncomfortable. Fair enough, as a nation we've had over 200 years to get used to it, so... deal with it. I happen to be a person who is uncomfortable with the idea that private citizens... college girls for Chrissakes!... are assaulted by police and detained illegally and that doesn't scare a large segment of the population.

Do not talk to police if they approach you. Do not allow them ever to enter your car and do not ever leave your car unless they acknowledge, on video, that they are detaining you for a specific cause.

Let's help law enforcement by keeping them within the bounds of the Constitution. They work hard and need our help.
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David desJardins
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DWTripp wrote:
Let's help law enforcement by keeping them within the bounds of the Constitution. They work hard and need our help.
That reminds me of how the government can help you by taking away your guns for safekeeping.
 
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Well both of those articles are pretty shitty. Both submit Daly's story as factual representations because it sounds a lot more dramatic. I mean 'she says she never drank alcohol before!' what a poor little girl 'their badges weren't recognizable!' Well, exactly how many forms of badges would the average person recognize? Then the little paragraph long spiel about how trying it all was for her. Right.

You don't start your car while stopped by an officer. You really really don't. Cars are dangerous weapons and the last thing any police officer wants is several tons of metal primed to run them the hell over. The girl reacted poorly and made some very bad choices. So she 'suffered' a bit of humiliation and some inconvenience. Charges were dropped (she did still hit two cops with a car, if this were malicious they could have prosecuted her for that) she needs to move on with her life and next time approached by an officer perhaps be a bit more cooperative.

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Shushnik wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
sikeospi wrote:
Your article states, "One of the men ... drew a gun."

Hmm. All this for bottled water?
She hit the officers with her car. That is a pretty serious threat. I can understand why they would draw their weapons.
The article states that they drew weapons first, at the onset of contact with the suspect. She subsequently panicked when she was confronted with a large group of plain clothes officers wielding weapons and attempting to break out the windows of her car with her and her friends in it.

You're too smart to not have understood that, David. Why are you being dishonest?
Actually they would draw when she started the car. The car is a weapon.
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bjlillo wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Well both of those articles are pretty shitty. Both submit Daly's story as factual representations because it sounds a lot more dramatic. I mean 'she says she never drank alcohol before!' what a poor little girl 'their badges weren't recognizable!' Well, exactly how many forms of badges would the average person recognize? Then the little paragraph long spiel about how trying it all was for her. Right.

You don't start your car while stopped by an officer. You really really don't. Cars are dangerous weapons and the last thing any police officer wants is several tons of metal primed to run them the hell over. The girl reacted poorly and made some very bad choices. So she 'suffered' a bit of humiliation and some inconvenience. Charges were dropped (she did still hit two cops with a car, if this were malicious they could have prosecuted her for that) she needs to move on with her life and next time approached by an officer perhaps be a bit more cooperative.
The next time a woman sees someone stop her with a badge, she'd better be compliant. I'm totally getting one of these:

She can choose not to, sure. If it is a fake then she makes the right call, if it is real then she has to go through a minor inconvenience. Personally if there was any doubt in my mind and I was female I'd protect myself first too. I'd rather be safe eh? Besides if you want to challenge an officer's credentials there are plenty of legal ways to do it 'starting your car' is just not one of those ways.
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Shadrach wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Well both of those articles are pretty shitty. Both submit Daly's story as factual representations because it sounds a lot more dramatic. I mean 'she says she never drank alcohol before!' what a poor little girl 'their badges weren't recognizable!' Well, exactly how many forms of badges would the average person recognize? Then the little paragraph long spiel about how trying it all was for her. Right.

You don't start your car while stopped by an officer. You really really don't. Cars are dangerous weapons and the last thing any police officer wants is several tons of metal primed to run them the hell over. The girl reacted poorly and made some very bad choices. So she 'suffered' a bit of humiliation and some inconvenience. Charges were dropped (she did still hit two cops with a car, if this were malicious they could have prosecuted her for that) she needs to move on with her life and next time approached by an officer perhaps be a bit more cooperative.
The next time a woman sees someone stop her with a badge, she'd better be compliant. I'm totally getting one of these:

She can choose not to, sure. If it is a fake then she makes the right call, if it is real then she has to go through a minor inconvenience. Personally if there was any doubt in my mind and I was female I'd protect myself first too. I'd rather be safe eh? Besides if you want to challenge an officer's credentials there are plenty of legal ways to do it 'starting your car' is just not one of those ways.
So how much authority do I have to show in order to be considered no longer a threat? A badge, a uniform, what? And, at what point is there no longer any doubt I'm a 'good guy'? When I let her examine my badge? If she can see the badge I'm probably close enough to grab her. I can get a uniform somewhere, it'll be close enough to the average citizen. She thought she was in danger, she did the right thing, they dismissed the charges because they'd be laughed out of court in a jury trial when the defense attorney spins it as looking like a group of people trying to attack her for no reason.

The cops probably couldn't do much else either. I would call this a nobody-at-fault misunderstanding.
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Jythier wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Well both of those articles are pretty shitty. Both submit Daly's story as factual representations because it sounds a lot more dramatic. I mean 'she says she never drank alcohol before!' what a poor little girl 'their badges weren't recognizable!' Well, exactly how many forms of badges would the average person recognize? Then the little paragraph long spiel about how trying it all was for her. Right.

You don't start your car while stopped by an officer. You really really don't. Cars are dangerous weapons and the last thing any police officer wants is several tons of metal primed to run them the hell over. The girl reacted poorly and made some very bad choices. So she 'suffered' a bit of humiliation and some inconvenience. Charges were dropped (she did still hit two cops with a car, if this were malicious they could have prosecuted her for that) she needs to move on with her life and next time approached by an officer perhaps be a bit more cooperative.
The next time a woman sees someone stop her with a badge, she'd better be compliant. I'm totally getting one of these:

She can choose not to, sure. If it is a fake then she makes the right call, if it is real then she has to go through a minor inconvenience. Personally if there was any doubt in my mind and I was female I'd protect myself first too. I'd rather be safe eh? Besides if you want to challenge an officer's credentials there are plenty of legal ways to do it 'starting your car' is just not one of those ways.
So how much authority do I have to show in order to be considered no longer a threat? A badge, a uniform, what? And, at what point is there no longer any doubt I'm a 'good guy'? When I let her examine my badge? If she can see the badge I'm probably close enough to grab her. I can get a uniform somewhere, it'll be close enough to the average citizen. She thought she was in danger, she did the right thing, they dismissed the charges because they'd be laughed out of court in a jury trial when the defense attorney spins it as looking like a group of people trying to attack her for no reason.

The cops probably couldn't do much else either. I would call this a nobody-at-fault misunderstanding.
I agree.
 
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Shadrach wrote:
Jythier wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Well both of those articles are pretty shitty. Both submit Daly's story as factual representations because it sounds a lot more dramatic. I mean 'she says she never drank alcohol before!' what a poor little girl 'their badges weren't recognizable!' Well, exactly how many forms of badges would the average person recognize? Then the little paragraph long spiel about how trying it all was for her. Right.

You don't start your car while stopped by an officer. You really really don't. Cars are dangerous weapons and the last thing any police officer wants is several tons of metal primed to run them the hell over. The girl reacted poorly and made some very bad choices. So she 'suffered' a bit of humiliation and some inconvenience. Charges were dropped (she did still hit two cops with a car, if this were malicious they could have prosecuted her for that) she needs to move on with her life and next time approached by an officer perhaps be a bit more cooperative.
The next time a woman sees someone stop her with a badge, she'd better be compliant. I'm totally getting one of these:

She can choose not to, sure. If it is a fake then she makes the right call, if it is real then she has to go through a minor inconvenience. Personally if there was any doubt in my mind and I was female I'd protect myself first too. I'd rather be safe eh? Besides if you want to challenge an officer's credentials there are plenty of legal ways to do it 'starting your car' is just not one of those ways.
So how much authority do I have to show in order to be considered no longer a threat? A badge, a uniform, what? And, at what point is there no longer any doubt I'm a 'good guy'? When I let her examine my badge? If she can see the badge I'm probably close enough to grab her. I can get a uniform somewhere, it'll be close enough to the average citizen. She thought she was in danger, she did the right thing, they dismissed the charges because they'd be laughed out of court in a jury trial when the defense attorney spins it as looking like a group of people trying to attack her for no reason.

The cops probably couldn't do much else either. I would call this a nobody-at-fault misunderstanding.
I agree.
You trying to give me another heart attack?

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Tripp: your videos are an example of how to get yourself in serious trouble over the refusal to answer a simple question. There are plenty of other videos showing guys like this getting tazed in response, usually because of a misunderstanding about whether the agents "waved them through" or not. It's hard to tell what you're being told if you're only willing to roll the window down an inch or two - and it's hard for the agents to see what's going on inside a car with the windows rolled up. Is that a video camera or a gun? Do all of the other occupants have their hands in clear view or not?
You're like a poster child for a State of Tyranny, Lee. Have you ever watched the James Duane video? It's only a waste of time if you don't mind being the subject of a police state.

I don't create scenes with police but I also do not and have not ever willingly "answered" exploratory questions by any police in those few incidents in my life where a police officer inappropriately attempted to question me. In fact, when I have been stopped by police (twice in 20+ years for valid reasons like a tail light out) I handed the officer both my driver license and my carry permit and told them exactly what weapon I had and where it was located. I did not, nor would I have offered to allow the officer to "look" or even see the weapon without cause.

Law Enforcement is a double-edged sword, officers have what power we give them. no more, no less. What power do you want them to have? The power to attack college girls, toss them in jail and terrorize them with no cause? Or like in Canada, the power to enter private residences while the citizens are being detained from the residences and "check for gun violations"?

What makes you think that police are any different than people you don't trust? That police, as a group, have enough members with criminal intent, power-rage, sociopathic traits, and just general willingness to do as they please that just letting them run herd over us is exactly how we end up being afraid of the police? And rightly so. Do you trust Catholic priests because they wear a frock and went to seminary? Do you trust corporate CEO's because they wear a suit and went to business school? Do you trust politicians because they roll-up their sleeves and kiss babies?

Police work, by it's nature tends to attract more than it's share of people who want to have physical power over you. No different than politics attracting people who want to legally steal your money and tell you what you can and cannot do. If we need to defrock pedophiles in the churches, stop politicians from stealing us all blind, keep corporations from making us poor and hopeless, if that is what we, as ethical people need to do... then why should we allow a power-hungry police force to rough us up while we smile sheepishly?

Here's the new Boise badges by the way... they mean nothing. And they definitely don't mean the person wearing one has the right to tell me to do anything unless there is cause.

Kind of look cartoony, don't they?


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LeeDambis wrote:
[...]
Being a cop is a dangerous job. The best way to keep police within their "bounds" is not for ordinary citizens to turn every routine stop into a confrontation. That only raises their threat antennae, and they're armed and trained to respond to threats with violence. They have to be, because not everyone they stop is an ordinary citizen.
This sounds like the way solders should react, not police.

Police should be trained to try to defuse tense situations, calm people down, negotiate solutions that don't involve violence or incarceration.

Does anyone know (actual statistics):
* How dangerous it really is to be a cop, compared to, say, a lumberjack?
* How often the average policeman is actually threatened with a gun?
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Shushnik wrote:
The article states that they drew weapons first, at the onset of contact with the suspect. She subsequently panicked when she was confronted with a large group of plain clothes officers wielding weapons and attempting to break out the windows of her car with her and her friends in it.
No, it doesn't say that. The article doesn't say the order of the events. If it did, it wouldn't be a reliable source of that information, since in a chaotic scene like this one there will be multiple accounts, and the source in this case seems to be one of the parties to the event.
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gyc365 wrote:
Does anyone know (actual statistics):
* How dangerous it really is to be a cop, compared to, say, a lumberjack?
You can't measure "danger" with statistics. People are a lot more unpredictable than trees. If part of your job is trying to anticipate which of the 10,000 people you encounter is going to go nuts and pull a weapon on you, that's different than dealing with trees that will always behave according to the laws of physics.
 
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DaviddesJ wrote:
gyc365 wrote:
Does anyone know (actual statistics):
* How dangerous it really is to be a cop, compared to, say, a lumberjack?
You can't measure "danger" with statistics. People are a lot more unpredictable than trees. If part of your job is trying to anticipate which of the 10,000 people you encounter is going to go nuts and pull a weapon on you, that's different than dealing with trees that will always behave according to the laws of physics.
You're not dealing with kind of tree I deal with. The kind of trees I deal with are... alive. They will smack you down at the hint of a wind.
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Jythier wrote:
The kind of trees I deal with are... alive.
Holy cow. Live trees? You had better be armed to protect yourself against that kind of threat.
 
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He's looking real sharp in his 1940's fedora. He's got nerves of steel, an iron will, and several other metal-themed attributes. His fur is water tight and he's always up for a fight.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Jythier wrote:
The kind of trees I deal with are... alive.
Holy cow. Live trees? You had better be armed to protect yourself against that kind of threat.
Some people prefer automatic weaponry, but I find an axe scares them more. Keeps 'em in line when they realize you might just take a limb.
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Leaping from tree to tree as they float down the mighty rivers of British Columbia!
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gyc365 wrote:
LeeDambis wrote:
[...]
Being a cop is a dangerous job. The best way to keep police within their "bounds" is not for ordinary citizens to turn every routine stop into a confrontation. That only raises their threat antennae, and they're armed and trained to respond to threats with violence. They have to be, because not everyone they stop is an ordinary citizen.
This sounds like the way solders should react, not police.

Police should be trained to try to defuse tense situations, calm people down, negotiate solutions that don't involve violence or incarceration.

Does anyone know (actual statistics):
* How dangerous it really is to be a cop, compared to, say, a lumberjack?
* How often the average policeman is actually threatened with a gun?
In danger situations soldiers react by shooting you dead. Police react by threatening you with enough force to hopefully cow you into submission. Police are trained, for their own safety, to take the 'alpha' role in any situation. This is why 'yes sir, no sir' and presenting a very quiet calm demeanor is likely to have the best outcome, the less threatened you make the OFFICER feel the more calm they will be. Remain calm is the key. Police don't know if you're scared because you don't know what's happening, if you're scared because you've got a kilo of coke under your seat, if you're scared because there's a body in the trunk, or if you're just tweaked out on meth. They have to respond assuming the worst. Some officers do manage to avoid this and 'diffuse' situations where others might escalate them, those are generally the more experienced and confident ones. They're exemplary officers, but not a practicable standard.
 
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bjlillo wrote:
Jythier wrote:
Leaping from tree to tree as they float down the mighty rivers of British Columbia!
I said nothing about pressing wild flowers in my lumberjack experience.
Pressing wild flowers?

Anyway, desJardins missed the point. What a surprise. So what if it's "dangerous" to be a cop? It's dangerous to be a BLM fire fighter also, as the news today will prove. Nobody becomes a cop or DEA or ATF agent without prior knowledge they could get hurt or killed. And the danger doesn't make it okay for them to control you, demand unreasonable searches, arrest you for no good reason or terrorize you because they're cops and you're not.

Cab drivers, as a job category, live a more dangerous existence than police and you'd blow a fucking gasket if Cabbies started pulling people over, demanding unreasonable searches and dragging them to jail or taking their stuff. Whether doing something is dangerous or not has zero to do with violating a person's rights. Commercial fishermen are in the most dangerous profession in the USA - for less than $15 an hour, on average. Would you allow one of them to attack your college-age daughter because she had what looked like beer?

What is wrong with you people?
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DWTripp wrote:
Whether doing something is dangerous or not has zero to do with violating a person's rights.
This story also has zero to do with violating a person's rights. There's no evidence in this story that anyone violated anyone's rights, except perhaps the right of the police officers not to be attacked by a motor vehicle.
 
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