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Subject: The case of the seven American bottle water cops who attacked the car of the sorority girl rss

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Josh
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DWTripp wrote:
Would you allow one of them to attack your college-age daughter because she had what looked like beer?

What is wrong with you people?
If that's what had, you know, actually happened then I think this discussion would be very different.
 
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I'm wondering if this the same Tripp who was so sympathetic to the beleaguered police officer who was rushing to the scene of a crime and had some drunken fool turn in front of him. It seems like he swings wildly back and forth based on which side of the bed he got out of this morning. At least I'm consistent. Police have a tough job and it gets easier if we cooperate to the extent possible.
 
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DaviddesJ wrote:
I'm wondering if this the same Tripp who was so sympathetic to the beleaguered police officer who was rushing to the scene of a crime and had some drunken fool turn in front of him. It seems like he swings wildly back and forth based on which side of the bed he got out of this morning. At least I'm consistent. Police have a tough job and it gets easier if we cooperate to the extent possible.
But I thought the reason for the Girl non-cooperation was because she didn't know they were police.

Perhaps the officers over reaction to what, at its worst, was an underage drinker is the cause of the problem?

-M
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DWTripp wrote:
Fact - if students were actually taught what their Constitutional rights are and how to effectively exercise them then law enforcement of all kinds would have to respect the rights of citizens. I've recently posted the "never talk to police" video by law professor James Duane, but here are some more that might surprise those of you who think people who want to remain unmolested by the police are weird. What's weird and tyrannical are law enforcement agents who willingly take advantage of the ignorance of Americans... and end up acting illegally, and stupidly.

First, the DHS -



Cappy and his fellow whack jobs who want to just bend over and get anally reamed because he fears guns will enjoy this one -



People who own weapons may make some people uncomfortable. Fair enough, as a nation we've had over 200 years to get used to it, so... deal with it. I happen to be a person who is uncomfortable with the idea that private citizens... college girls for Chrissakes!... are assaulted by police and detained illegally and that doesn't scare a large segment of the population.

Do not talk to police if they approach you. Do not allow them ever to enter your car and do not ever leave your car unless they acknowledge, on video, that they are detaining you for a specific cause.

Let's help law enforcement by keeping them within the bounds of the Constitution. They work hard and need our help.
Tripp, those are amazing and always very uncomfortable to watch.

It's such a tricky business.
 
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malloc wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
I'm wondering if this the same Tripp who was so sympathetic to the beleaguered police officer who was rushing to the scene of a crime and had some drunken fool turn in front of him. It seems like he swings wildly back and forth based on which side of the bed he got out of this morning. At least I'm consistent. Police have a tough job and it gets easier if we cooperate to the extent possible.
But I thought the reason for the Girl non-cooperation was because she didn't know they were police.

Perhaps the officers over reaction to what, at its worst, was an underage drinker is the cause of the problem?

-M
She started the car. So allowing your interpretation they're assuming an underage drinker who is driving. You're right, when did that ever hurt anyone.
 
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Shadrach wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
Would you allow one of them to attack your college-age daughter because she had what looked like beer?

What is wrong with you people?
If that's what had, you know, actually happened then I think this discussion would be very different.
I'll go with the girl's version, not the 6 armed ATF agents who assaulted her and her friends. I read the same articles you did and it's still a 'he said - she said' event.

In what world is it okay for 6 "agents" in plain clothes to swarm a vehicle with young ladies in it because of a "suspicion" she had bought a 12-pack of beer? I'm sorry, but if you think there is anything, even a small tiny bit, reasonable about that then you're part of the reason why this sort of crime against innocent citizens happens in America.

disclaimer - when I was a teen I was arrested and thrown in a JDC in El Paso Texas because I had a cigarette. I wasn't even part of the ongoing discussion between 3 large policemen, my group of 12 teens trying to play football and a coach and group of other kids wanting to play on the same public field, We were playing, the coach and his group showed up and he told us to vamoose - from a public park - and when we didn't he walked over to the phone booth and called the cops.

True story. Exactly as I wrote it. 12 of us playing 6-man flag football. Cops arrive and actually push 3 of the larger teens against the cars because as they stated, "we were bigger than the coach's kids". I was standing somewhat away from the main discussion smoking and a cop looked at me, swung, open-handed, knocked the cigarette from me mouth while also striking me in the hand and face, threw me against the car, cuffed me and threw me in the JDC for 36 hours.

I never said a word to anyone prior to that moment. And all I did say was "what am I arrested for", after arriving at the JDC. I was 15 years old. When they finally tracked my dad down and I was released I went to the library and also talked to several teachers and tried to find any "law" or "right" the policeman had to do that to me. There was zero. he did it for the sole reason that he could. His goal was probably to "teach me a lesson"

Is that how you want your children to learn their lessons?

I'm no Constitutional scholar, but this kid was violated and no matter who you believe, it was clearly instigated by the ATF agents and the "cause", a pack of potential beer, justified the reaction only in a police state.

BTW, the cop told me I was being arrested for "smoking". In 1965, in the state of Texas, it was illegal to sell cigarettes to anyone under the age of 18. It was not illegal to smoke them. Hell, it wasn't even illegal for a kid to drink if the parent bought the drink. I had sat at my dad's favorite bar dozens of times in downtown El Paso while he and his friends BS'd and he'd buy me a beer to keep me occupied.
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Shadrach wrote:
Well both of those articles are pretty shitty. Both submit Daly's story as factual representations because it sounds a lot more dramatic. I mean 'she says she never drank alcohol before!' what a poor little girl 'their badges weren't recognizable!' Well, exactly how many forms of badges would the average person recognize? Then the little paragraph long spiel about how trying it all was for her. Right.

You don't start your car while stopped by an officer. You really really don't. Cars are dangerous weapons and the last thing any police officer wants is several tons of metal primed to run them the hell over. The girl reacted poorly and made some very bad choices. So she 'suffered' a bit of humiliation and some inconvenience. Charges were dropped (she did still hit two cops with a car, if this were malicious they could have prosecuted her for that) she needs to move on with her life and next time approached by an officer perhaps be a bit more cooperative.

I'd agree if they had a uniformed police officer.

Undercover cops and fake undercover cops are impossible to tell apart.

When they do this next time, they need to have a uniformed police officer available to calm things down. They could always wear an overcoat or something to cover their uniform until the bust.

I agree that the police should enforce the laws on the books and unfortunately, it's illegal for 18 year olds to buy alcohol.

Based on Tripp's early post of how the FBI handles cases with the written record and no recordings, I have to agree I wouldn't trust a word the ATF said that wasn't on video tape. I don't trust the girl that much either. Which leaves me with a presumption of innocence and an assumption that the government guy screwed up by behaving like secret agents more than law enforcement officers.
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Shadrach wrote:
malloc wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
I'm wondering if this the same Tripp who was so sympathetic to the beleaguered police officer who was rushing to the scene of a crime and had some drunken fool turn in front of him. It seems like he swings wildly back and forth based on which side of the bed he got out of this morning. At least I'm consistent. Police have a tough job and it gets easier if we cooperate to the extent possible.
But I thought the reason for the Girl non-cooperation was because she didn't know they were police.

Perhaps the officers over reaction to what, at its worst, was an underage drinker is the cause of the problem?

-M
She started the car. So allowing your interpretation they're assuming an underage drinker who is driving. You're right, when did that ever hurt anyone.
she had just purchased the water, she was clearly not in suspicion of being a drunk driver.

-M

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maxo-texas wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Well both of those articles are pretty shitty. Both submit Daly's story as factual representations because it sounds a lot more dramatic. I mean 'she says she never drank alcohol before!' what a poor little girl 'their badges weren't recognizable!' Well, exactly how many forms of badges would the average person recognize? Then the little paragraph long spiel about how trying it all was for her. Right.

You don't start your car while stopped by an officer. You really really don't. Cars are dangerous weapons and the last thing any police officer wants is several tons of metal primed to run them the hell over. The girl reacted poorly and made some very bad choices. So she 'suffered' a bit of humiliation and some inconvenience. Charges were dropped (she did still hit two cops with a car, if this were malicious they could have prosecuted her for that) she needs to move on with her life and next time approached by an officer perhaps be a bit more cooperative.



I'd agree if they had a uniformed police officer.

Undercover cops and fake undercover cops are impossible to tell apart.

When they do this next time, they need to have a uniformed police officer available to calm things down. They could always wear an overcoat or something to cover their uniform until the bust.

I agree that the police should enforce the laws on the books and unfortunately, it's illegal for 18 year olds to buy alcohol.
Perhaps they should have waited for one to do so.
 
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DaviddesJ wrote:
I'm wondering if this the same Tripp who was so sympathetic to the beleaguered police officer who was rushing to the scene of a crime and had some drunken fool turn in front of him. It seems like he swings wildly back and forth based on which side of the bed he got out of this morning. At least I'm consistent. Police have a tough job and it gets easier if we cooperate to the extent possible.
David, you're either really stupid... in the sense of "people smarts" or you're just trolling. I'm torn between stupid David and trolling David.

being sympathetic about the situation of a cop attempting to do his job, as in the case of the Idaho cop who killed the drunk driver, is not even in the same discussion of whether cops ought to have the right to violate a citizens Constitutional protections because the cop "wants to".
 
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Man, remember that time you went out of the store and went to leave in your car, and just sat there without starting it? Good times dude. Good times.
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Why do people keep saying "ATF"? There's no connection to ATF in this case (these are Virginia cops). Is this all about having a grudge against certain laws? Like, if they had been rounding up liberals you'd be fine with that?

I wouldn't have thought that people would start arguing that whether you have to comply with police instructions would depend on what you think of the laws they are enforcing. But then, I've overestimated people here before.
 
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Sorry BJ, but I am not obsessed with Monty Python. Yes, I vaguely remember the song. No, I don't know all the lines from The Holy Grail either. I do remember the skit where the pet shop owner sells a guy a dead parrot though.

And I don't get Star Wars or Star Trek references either. Unless they'r obvious. Like the Red Shirt people.
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bjlillo wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
Sorry BJ, but I am not obsessed with Monty Python. Yes, I vaguely remember the song. No, I don't know all the lines from The Holy Grail either. I do remember the skit where the pet shop owner sells a guy a dead parrot though.

And I don't get Star Wars or Star Trek references either. Unless they'r obvious. Like the Red Shirt people.
Well, that song hits two areas of interest for me: lumberjacking and cross-dressing. Clearly a win-win.
And Canada! Win-win-win!
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malloc wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
malloc wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
I'm wondering if this the same Tripp who was so sympathetic to the beleaguered police officer who was rushing to the scene of a crime and had some drunken fool turn in front of him. It seems like he swings wildly back and forth based on which side of the bed he got out of this morning. At least I'm consistent. Police have a tough job and it gets easier if we cooperate to the extent possible.
But I thought the reason for the Girl non-cooperation was because she didn't know they were police.

Perhaps the officers over reaction to what, at its worst, was an underage drinker is the cause of the problem?

-M
She started the car. So allowing your interpretation they're assuming an underage drinker who is driving. You're right, when did that ever hurt anyone.
she had just purchased the water, she was clearly not in suspicion of being a drunk driver.

-M

Because drunk people never want more alcohol? I'm not the one claiming she was a presumed drunk, you are. I'm just saying your scenario presents more reasons rather than less. My scenario has her completely sober, but starting a car and thereby giving herself the chance to A)flee the scene or B)cause harm. Both of which she actually ended up doing.
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LeeDambis wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
Quote:
Tripp: your videos are an example of how to get yourself in serious trouble over the refusal to answer a simple question. There are plenty of other videos showing guys like this getting tazed in response, usually because of a misunderstanding about whether the agents "waved them through" or not. It's hard to tell what you're being told if you're only willing to roll the window down an inch or two - and it's hard for the agents to see what's going on inside a car with the windows rolled up. Is that a video camera or a gun? Do all of the other occupants have their hands in clear view or not?
You're like a poster child for a State of Tyranny, Lee. Have you ever watched the James Duane video? It's only a waste of time if you don't mind being the subject of a police state.

I don't create scenes with police but I also do not and have not ever willingly "answered" exploratory questions by any police in those few incidents in my life where a police officer inappropriately attempted to question me. In fact, when I have been stopped by police (twice in 20+ years for valid reasons like a tail light out) I handed the officer both my driver license and my carry permit and told them exactly what weapon I had and where it was located. I did not, nor would I have offered to allow the officer to "look" or even see the weapon without cause.

Law Enforcement is a double-edged sword, officers have what power we give them. no more, no less. What power do you want them to have? The power to attack college girls, toss them in jail and terrorize them with no cause? Or like in Canada, the power to enter private residences while the citizens are being detained from the residences and "check for gun violations"?

What makes you think that police are any different than people you don't trust? That police, as a group, have enough members with criminal intent, power-rage, sociopathic traits, and just general willingness to do as they please that just letting them run herd over us is exactly how we end up being afraid of the police? And rightly so. Do you trust Catholic priests because they wear a frock and went to seminary? Do you trust corporate CEO's because they wear a suit and went to business school? Do you trust politicians because they roll-up their sleeves and kiss babies?

Police work, by it's nature tends to attract more than it's share of people who want to have physical power over you. No different than politics attracting people who want to legally steal your money and tell you what you can and cannot do. If we need to defrock pedophiles in the churches, stop politicians from stealing us all blind, keep corporations from making us poor and hopeless, if that is what we, as ethical people need to do... then why should we allow a power-hungry police force to rough us up while we smile sheepishly?
This isn't about police abuse of power, or people meekly submitting to out-of-control police power. These officers had a job to do, and that was to detect and arrest underage drinkers. How many of us would wink, wink at that and call it overemphasis on a trivial crime? Well, none of us who've seen the heartache of a family whose loved son or daughter was killed in a car accident involving underage drinking. It happens a lot, and it's that much more likely to happen near a college campus.

The police had probable cause to stop this woman because they believed that she was in possession of alcohol and was underage. Yes, they were mistaken about the contents of the cans, but they still had probable cause to stop her, and that's part of their job. How would the story spin if the cans did contain alcohol, the police decided not to stop her, and she ended up wrapping her car around a tree while drunk?

For most of the rest, I agree. You aren't required to bend over backwards to satisfy the police. You don't have to submit to a search. You aren't required to say anything at all in most cases.

Pushing those non-requirements to the limit, however, does a disservice to you, the police, and the community as a whole, because by and large the police aren't out there to harass and detain law-abiding citizens. Take your video example of the guy walking around the streets with a gun. Sure, he's exercising his constitutional rights. He's also tying up the attention and services of numerous police officers who might be needed elsewhere. A little cooperation would reassure the cops that he doesn't have some malicious intent. Instead, by refusing to even speak with the officer, he likely forces the police to follow him up and down the street just to make sure. It's a stunt - a silly, abusive, and dangerous one, all designed for what? To prove that he has constitutional rights? We already know that. So do the police.

They may have had reasonable suspicion to temporarily detain, but there's no way they had probable cause for an arrest.
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Shushnik wrote:


You're too smart to not have understood that, David. Why are you being dishonest?
It's what he does best.
 
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A teenager walks into a store, makes a purchase, and leaves, gets in her car.

Probable cause abounds.
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If we could sort the population of the US into two groups, so that each could live as they prefer, perhaps the best, most productive split would be between those who try to cooperate with the police, and those who think it's fine to run them over.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
If we could sort the population of the US into two groups, so that each could live as they prefer, perhaps the best, most productive split would be between those who try to cooperate with the police, and those who think it's fine to run them over.
Run who over? How would she know they're police when she's busy freaking out that these unknown assailants are trying to break her windows?
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Jythier wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Well both of those articles are pretty shitty. Both submit Daly's story as factual representations because it sounds a lot more dramatic. I mean 'she says she never drank alcohol before!' what a poor little girl 'their badges weren't recognizable!' Well, exactly how many forms of badges would the average person recognize? Then the little paragraph long spiel about how trying it all was for her. Right.

You don't start your car while stopped by an officer. You really really don't. Cars are dangerous weapons and the last thing any police officer wants is several tons of metal primed to run them the hell over. The girl reacted poorly and made some very bad choices. So she 'suffered' a bit of humiliation and some inconvenience. Charges were dropped (she did still hit two cops with a car, if this were malicious they could have prosecuted her for that) she needs to move on with her life and next time approached by an officer perhaps be a bit more cooperative.


I'd agree if they had a uniformed police officer.

Undercover cops and fake undercover cops are impossible to tell apart.

When they do this next time, they need to have a uniformed police officer available to calm things down. They could always wear an overcoat or something to cover their uniform until the bust.

I agree that the police should enforce the laws on the books and unfortunately, it's illegal for 18 year olds to buy alcohol.
Perhaps they should have waited for one to do so.
Perhaps they should have had one there to begin with along with the other seven officers staking out a non-liquor store to bust underage kids for buying a six pack of beer.

Estimated cost for 1 day of stake out: about $5000 bucks.
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Usually the way I know it's the police is that they identify themselves as police and show their badges.

The people for whom that's not enough, should all join group two.
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Shushnik wrote:

You're too smart to not have understood that, David. Why are you being dishonest?
The smarter you are, the better you rationalize to support your position.

(so it's not really being dishonest as being unable to see your own blind spot).

 
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maxo-texas wrote:
The smarter you are, the better you rationalize to support your position.
How do you explain Tripp, then? The police can't stop and question people who appear to be buying alcohol illegally, but it's fine for the police to kill them by driving into them at 100 mph? You'd need a whole lot of smarts to support that level of rationalization, and Tripp has never displayed them so far.
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Cops don't have "rights" in the performance of their duties. And considering that they are the ones in the regular position to infringe on everyone else's rights it's silly to even mention it (not that you mentioned it but the poster you're replying to did).
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