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Subject: The case of the seven American bottle water cops who attacked the car of the sorority girl rss

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DaviddesJ wrote:
Usually the way I know it's the police is that they identify themselves as police and show their badges.
That really worked for Cara Knott.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Usually the way I know it's the police is that they identify themselves as police and show their badges.

The people for whom that's not enough, should all join group two.
Funny thing is the same girl pulled over when an officer in a cars with a flashing light asked her to do so.

Perhaps the problem was in the way the officers approached the car and identified themselves.

-M
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pdoherty wrote:
Cops don't have "rights" in the performance of their duties.
Seriously? This nation is founded on unalienable rights, including life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, except for cops, whom you can kill if you want while they are performing their duties? That's your position?
 
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DaviddesJ wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
The smarter you are, the better you rationalize to support your position.
How do you explain Tripp, then? The police can't stop and question people who appear to be buying alcohol illegally, but it's fine for the police to kill them by driving into them at 100 mph? You'd need a whole lot of smarts to support that level of rationalization, and Tripp has never displayed them so far.
Mac is right in your case David. You may be "math smart", but you are clearly "people stupid". I wonder, why you keep bringing up the cop chase? Do you sit down with someone and explain apples to them by showing them an orange and telling them that an apple isn't orange, doesn't grow in the same climate, doesn't have citrus acid in it, has a different peel, different meat inside and except for growing on trees and being edible, isn't anything like an orange. But otherwise, they're exactly the same.

As for the "open carry" people. What sort of protests do you agree with? Mobs in a park? Mobs marching down a public street with placards? Mobs stopping traffic? Mobs yelling, camping out in parks, shitting on the courthouse lawn? It's clearly within our rights to protest in many ways in America and a single person protest is no more threatening than a "million man march" protest.

I do not "elevate" police. Ever. Sure, they deserve whatever respect they earn as public servants. They are still servants though and this case is a clear example of the servants being the overlords. If you want to live in a state where people always have to do what the police say... always... then I'm pretty sure it's not going to be America any time within the next hundred years or so. Hopefully never.
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malloc wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
Usually the way I know it's the police is that they identify themselves as police and show their badges.

The people for whom that's not enough, should all join group two.
Funny thing is the same girl pulled over when an officer in a cars with a flashing light asked her to do so.

Perhaps the problem was in the way the officers approached the car and identified themselves.

-M
The problem was a bad combination of things. I'm guessing here but I think the number of officers involved in so simple an operation likely was a 'show of force' meant to scare underage buyers. If they've had a problem with it lately, then it's a pretty sensible tactic. You up the risks you reduce the frequency.

The girl had just done a 'take back the night' thing, so she was extra keyed up and it seems responded to a situation already meant to be alarming(with a purpose) in an extremely negative an unforseen way. Back to the second page when someone said this was one of those no-fault bad situations. No one suffered permanent harm by it. Trying to make something out of it doesn't do anything one way or the other for society as a whole.
 
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DWTripp wrote:
I wonder, why you keep bringing up the cop chase?
Because it's such a clear example of my intellectual consistency, and your lack thereof.

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As for the "open carry" people. What sort of protests do you agree with?
I didn't say anything about open carry.

Quote:
They are still servants though and this case is a clear example of the servants being the overlords.
This is total bullshit and you know it. The legislature passed some laws you don't like, and told the police to enforce them. Who knows what these cops even think of underage drinking laws? Maybe they secretly think that kids should feel free to get drunk and drive all they like. But they went out to do the job they were hired to do, and when they attempted to question a suspect she went ballistic and ran into them with her car.

If you didn't start out with such antipathy, you would see these guys in a whole different light. They went out to do their job and they got attacked for it. You wouldn't be standing up for that in other circumstances. That's what I mean by intellectual consistency.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
The smarter you are, the better you rationalize to support your position.
How do you explain Tripp, then? The police can't stop and question people who appear to be buying alcohol illegally, but it's fine for the police to kill them by driving into them at 100 mph? You'd need a whole lot of smarts to support that level of rationalization, and Tripp has never displayed them so far.
Hehehe.

We all have our blind spots. Except me. I'm perfectly rational and self aware.

I think the police underestimated her fear of being attacked when approached by strangers. It seems like all the crucial decisions were made in seconds- before anyone had time to think clearly.

They assumed she'd broken the law and knew that they were police officer types.

She assumed they were bad people with ill intent and she was in danger since she'd done nothing wrong. Fight or flight. "Run!"

I'm not sure many of us could make the correct decision in a few seconds. Hell, we played lots of game last weekend and some people took a couple minutes to make what turned out to be bad decisions.

I think a flashing car lights and a uniformed officer might have prevented a lot of this.

---

I agree with Tripp occasionally but I don't understand him yet and probably never will.
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DaviddesJ wrote:

You can't measure "danger" with statistics.
    There's a huge multi-billion dollar industry that does exactly this. You should really get out more.

             S.


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DaviddesJ wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
I wonder, why you keep bringing up the cop chase?
Because it's such a clear example of my intellectual consistency, and your lack thereof.
In other words, being able to discern difference between different things is intellectual inconsistency? No wonder I think you're stupid and you think I am. You're stupid, is why.


Quote:
They are still servants though and this case is a clear example of the servants being the overlords.
Quote:
This is total bullshit and you know it. The legislature passed some laws you don't like, and told the police to enforce them. Who knows what these cops even think of underage drinking laws? Maybe they secretly think that kids should feel free to get drunk and drive all they like. But they went out to do the job they were hired to do, and when they attempted to question a suspect she went ballistic and ran into them with her car.

If you didn't start out with such antipathy, you would see these guys in a whole different light. They went out to do their job and they got attacked for it. You wouldn't be standing up for that in other circumstances. That's what I mean by intellectual consistency.
Thinking about your earlier statement that some people ought to be able to live in a state with others who don't hassle the police, I can see why you have a deranged and erratic thought process on this. It also makes sense that you are unable to understand how one thing is not like another. Do I want drunken teens careening through the night and T-boning van loads full of daycare children? No. Do I want 6 officers descending like banshees, at night, on a car load of totally innocent young girls who have nothing more serious in their vehicle than carbonated water? No.

Apparently you believe that by giving up all your rights as a private citizen and bowing in submission to "police" because they will always "do what's best for us, the sheep". There really is a way to stop underage drunks from killing kids that doesn't require terrorizing sorority girls in a C-store parking lot and then tossing one of them in jail for being terrorized.
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I'm baffled at the officers' lack of observational skills. Did the case not have any markings on it?

It's also not surprising that a group of women out at night would be terrified upon being approached by a large group of non-uniformed people, badges or no badges.

Finally, what the Hell were the officers thinking with their strategy? It would have been more effective to have a lone female officer approach in a non-threatening manner. That would have given the officer an opportunity to get a closer look at the beverages and evaluate the suspects' behavior. At that point, if the suspect was uncooperative or suspicious of the officer's identity, either call in a marked car that's been positioned just out of sight or radio ahead with a description of the suspect's vehicle and have the marked car pull it over before it leaves the parking lot. These would all be very simple things to do.

Trying to bash in the vehicle windows was a bad move and virtually guaranteed to make the driver panic. The officers should have recognized what was happening and tried to de-escalate.

I think people are often too critical of police. In this case, I think the police simply chose a poor plan, executed it awkwardly and inadvertently helped to escalate the situation. They were trying to catch underage alcohol buyers and should have prepared accordingly.
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I think if you enforce the law, there will be mistakes and misunderstandings.

We are a nation of some 330+million people- it's likely a mistake will be made every day somewhere. Sometimes, the mistakes can be learned from and procedures developed to avoid them in the future.

---

Cool thought. Undercover cops have undercover outfits with LED's that can be turned on to show the word "police" or "COP" or "ATF" or flash like a police car in white, red, blue and maybe a personal siren they can turn on. And of course all of them carrying video recording devices so no one can lie.
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Sagrilarus wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:

You can't measure "danger" with statistics.
    There's a huge multi-billion dollar industry that does exactly this. You should really get out more.
I know a lot more than you do about statistics. You can measure risk with statistics. But that's a lot different than measuring the danger that people experience. Personal experience---whether it's the danger that the police officer experiences from the interaction with an unknown subject, or the danger that a young woman experiences when she is accosted by a band of armed men---can't be reduced to a quantification (if you could show that she was mathematically very very unlikely to be harmed by this group, that wouldn't change her experience of how she feels about it).
 
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maxo-texas wrote:
I think if you enforce the law, there will be mistakes and misunderstandings.
    I think if you enforce the law with seven plain-clothes agents for a frikkin' underage purchase there will be more mistakes and misunderstandings.

    Police officers are trained to not make things worse. A "normal" workaday cop would have seen the woman panicking inside and told her to calm the hell down and waited to let things settle. The worst that could happen is she drives off and you get her tag number.

    I get the feeling these guys didn't get out in the public very much.

             S.


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DaviddesJ wrote:
pdoherty wrote:
Cops don't have "rights" in the performance of their duties.
Seriously? This nation is founded on unalienable rights, including life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, except for cops, whom you can kill if you want while they are performing their duties? That's your position?
Cops are granted authorities to conduct their jobs. Their "rights" as citizens don't come into play since they're the ones getting into other people's business in the performing of their duties. One of their granted authorities is preventing others from doing them harm, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. Obviously they still have the same Constitutional protections as individuals, but since we're discussing their abilities while engaged in law enforcement I'm not sure that's relevant. Too many people refer to police "having the right" to search a vehicle and so on, and that usage of the word rights irks me.
 
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DaviddesJ wrote:

I know a lot more than you do about statistics.
    Thank you gracing me with your wisdom professor, but your statement seems to kick the legs out from under your credibility. Danger is exceptionally easy to quantify.

             S.


 
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pdoherty wrote:
Cops are granted authorities to conduct their jobs. Their "rights" as citizens don't come into play since they're the ones getting into other people's business in the performing of their duties.
This is utter drivel. If you really do think that police officers give up the right to not be killed when they put on their uniform, you shouldn't be surprised when no one takes you seriously.
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Have fun with your straw man.
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Sagrilarus wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
I think if you enforce the law, there will be mistakes and misunderstandings.
    I think if you enforce the law with seven plain-clothes agents for a frikkin' underage purchase there will be more mistakes and misunderstandings.

    Police officers are trained to not make things worse. A "normal" workaday cop would have seen the woman panicking inside and told her to calm the hell down and waited to let things settle. The worst that could happen is she drives off and you get her tag number.

    I get the feeling these guys didn't get out in the public very much.

             S.


Mistakes are so obvious after you've made them.

 
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First of all, the gal was indeed first approached by a single female officer, to counter an upthread post.

I don't think we're giving enough credit to that she appears to be one of those sorority bubbleheads.

From her statement that she had to start her car in order to roll down her window, that tells me that they were all in their car and then the female officer came up to the window.

At which point she started her car in order to roll down her window, so she says. She seems not to know how to operate her vehicle because anyone who has driven any vehicle at all knows that the first click of the ignition turns on the electrics. What else doesn't she know about driving a two-ton SUV.

It was not she that went to that course, it was her friend in the passenger seat who egged her on to fly away.

There's been a lot of talk of probable cause. I would flip it the other way. If one is so terrified of public spaces that one is apt to turn to hysterical violence, you should stay indoors. That female officer could have been a passer-by asking for directions, or me, a male, doing the same thing. You don't get to trip out because you are fearful. As such, in your case you ought to forego the late night ice cream and cookie dough or be more organized so as to do your groceries during the day.

You also don't get to make up fantasies. All the officer had to do, and did, is show her their identification.


Regularly in the news are stories of underage drinkers wiping out a carload of themselves and/or pedestrians. They are irresponsible by nature and why there exists drinking laws. So, it's not "just a beer".

The police cannot let it be known that one can merely take off, and because it's just a beer, you get off. This will certainly encourage teenagers to attempt to flee the scene. So, the police must give chase.

With respect to firearms and police safety, let's not be intentionally obtuse about teenagers and handguns and their willingness to fire willy nilly on the slightest pretext.


Once at a service station a woman asked me to fill her car with gas because she didn't know how to do it. This whole event was instigated because the girl doesn't know how to roll down her SUV's window.
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isaacc wrote:
She seems not to know how to operate her vehicle because anyone who has driven any vehicle at all knows that the first click of the ignition turns on the electrics.
My Tesla Model S doesn't have any clicks of the ignition, or even an on-off switch.
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Shushnik wrote:
Yes it does say exactly that. In the article. Quit being obtuse.
You are not telling the truth.

It seems that I can read, and you can't.
 
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Shushnik wrote:
Yes it does say exactly that. In the article. Quit being obtuse.
You are not telling the truth.

It seems that I can read, and you can't.
I can't vouch for Rich, but I read the article and, like he quotes here, one of the officers pulled a gun and the DA agreed that happened. So maybe you can read, but you just don't understand the words?
 
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DWTripp wrote:
I can't vouch for Rich, but I read the article and, like he quotes here, one of the officers pulled a gun and the DA agreed that happened. So maybe you can read, but you just don't understand the words?
The article says that several things happened: the officers approached her, one jumped on the hood of her car, another drew a gun, the suspect tried to flee. It doesn't say which order these things happened in. It's unlikely that anyone even knows for sure.
 
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bjlillo wrote:
Are you also confused by the order that other things happened? Are we really sure the cop didn't jump on her hood before she came out of the store with the bottles of water?
No. When we know that several things happened, we can use logic to infer some things about the sequence of events. But in other cases logic doesn't answer the question, and you would need to interview witnesses to find out. We know that she didn't go into the store and buy water after she hit the cops with her vehicle. Logic tells us that, we don't need witness testimony. But we don't know whether the cops drew their guns after she hit them with her vehicle, or the other way around; to resolve that we would have to interview witnesses, survey the crime scene, etc.
 
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In what way is walking out of an upper scale grocery store (Harris Teeter) with a case of water "probable cause"? Look at the water case:

External image


Give me a fucking break - these Virginia ABC cops must be complete idiots. Here's an idea - learn the difference between a case of water and a case of beer. I'd have thought that ABC agents would be well versed on all of the various brands of alcoholic beverage packages that they are trying so hard to keep out of under age hands. What it really sounds like is a bunch of SWAT wannabe goons going all "Starsky & Hutch" and "Dirty Harry" on a couple of kids. With all of the video that they have in the parking lots of stores like Harris Teeter, and the fact that the charges were dropped almost immediately, it tells me that it was blantantly obvious upon review that these ABC idiots fucked up big time.

Probable cause, my ass.
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