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Subject: [Deck] NBN Fast Advance Tweak rss

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Aaron Smith
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So this is the NBN deck I use most often. I'm pretty happy with it over all, but there are a couple of tweaks I'm mulling over and thought I'd toss it out for opinions from the BGG community. The first one is Melange Mining. I really like the card, it can really bank you some credits, but lately I've been wondering if it's not a good fit for fast advance as it kind of slows things down. Was thinking of swapping them out for 2 Marked accounts. the other is Caduceus. I had originally included it because I thought "Hey! It does traces and NBN gets free credits for traces. AND it gives me money!". But in practice, unless the runner has almost no link, the low base trace strengths make it so that I usually end up *losing* money trying to stop the runner with it. The trouble is that I'm uncertain what would be a good replacement for it.

Deck Created with CardGameDB.com Android: Netrunner Deck Builder

Identity:
NBN: Making News (Core)


Total Cards: (49)

Agenda: (11)
AstroScript Pilot Program (Core) x3
Breaking News (Core) x3
Restructured Datapool (What Lies Ahead) x1
Project Beale (Future Proof) x3
Private Security Force (Core) x1

Asset: (5)
Adonis Campaign (Core) x3 ■■
Melange Mining Corp (Core) x2

ICE: (19)
Caduceus (What Lies Ahead) x2 ■■
Enigma (Core) x2
Wall of Static (Core) x2
Data Raven (Core) x3
TMI (What Lies Ahead) x2
Tollbooth (Core) x3
Chimera (Cyber Exodus) x2
Pop-up Window (Cyber Exodus) x3

Operation: (9)
Beanstalk Royalties (Core) x3 ■
Anonymous Tip (Core) x2
Psychographics (Core) x2
Big Brother (Trace Amount) x2

Upgrade: (5)
Ash 2X3ZB9CY (What Lies Ahead) x1 ■■
Red Herrings (Core) x2
SanSan City Grid (Core) x2

Total Agenda Points: 20

Influence Values Totals -
Haas-Bioroid: 8
Jinteki: 0
NBN: 37
The Weyland Consortium: 7
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Steven Tu
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Caduceus is great in NBN, it's a solid 5 to get through for all runners, but with NBN's +2 it's a 7 to get through, minus link. Each link takes 2 away from that number, so 1 link makes it 5, 2 links make it 3.

You can't rely on it for ETR - it's occasionally a nice ETR - but generally it's there as an economic leverage. As soon as runners link up, consider shoring it up with other ETR ICE and keep it as tax/income. Even if broken, it's relatively costly.

The point is to not put it on a remote that you MUST defend. It's an economic eroder so HQ or R&D (not R&D against big link shaper of course) is the best place for it.


Then Melange. If you can defend (and intend on defending) a big remote, then Melange is perfect. Otherwise go with the Marked accounts, but you can't go just 2 marked accounts, to get real value out of big trash assets, you should pack at least 3 pads and 3 marked accounts to overwhelm the runner with trash cost... Then it becomes damned if you do, damned if you don't.


Big Brother - does that often work for you? Is it only really Breaking News combo bait? That combo is HARD to pull off, so I'm not sure if that's the best thing to pack. Then, why not 3 San Sans? That's another damned if you do damed if you don't card for the runner - defend it a bit and the runner either burs all their cash on it or hope they R&D lock you.

TMIs don't really work all that well anymore these days, you say that Caduceus is having trouble against link... Well, TMI has even bigger trouble against link. I think one day it may come back as useful (though not at the rate FFG is pushing out pro-link identities everywhere), but right now there's too much link to be running TMI, IMO.
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Aaron Smith
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I've actually gotten quite a bit of use out of Big Brother. Quite a few times I've scored a Breaking News, then hit them with Big Brother to make the tags stick. At the very least, it slows the runner down as they spend credits and clicks to clear those tags. On at least a few occasions, I've been able to use those tags with psychographics as well.

Yeah, maybe my problem with Caduceus is looking at it as an ETR ice. That's a good point.

I run only 2 San Sans for the simple reason that I only *have* 2 San Sans as I only picked up 2 core sets. when I'm making decks, even if I'm going to be using them in OCTGN, I still make them so that I could recreate them with the actual cards. Silly, but that's just how I roll.

I'd forgotten about TMI. Now that you mention it, that's a pretty hit or miss one as well, just like you said. Hmmm....this is going to need more tinkering than I thought.
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Tom Keaten
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Tuism wrote:
...though not at the rate FFG is pushing out pro-link identities everywhere...
Second look at Net Police?
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Thanee
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Tuism wrote:
... you should pack at least 3 pads and 3 marked accounts to overwhelm the runner with trash cost... Then it becomes damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I have made good experiences with these in my NBN (has 3x Marked Accounts and 3x Pad Campaign). It's a lot of credits to get rid of those.

Quote:
TMIs don't really work all that well anymore these days, ...
...but right now there's too much link to be running TMI, IMO.
I like them so far. They are great during the early game, when it does not cost too much to rez them, and unless they get de-rezzed somehow, you only need to get the Trace done once.

And you can always pay some more in order to make it work. It's a Barrier 5 after all, so worth a few credits over the 3 it costs to rez.

Bye
Thanee
 
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Dirk Tebben
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Neksol wrote:
Tuism wrote:
...though not at the rate FFG is pushing out pro-link identities everywhere...
Second look at Net Police?
I tried to make Net Police work in my NBN deck, but it's just too easy to trash. The vast majority of the time, it works at most once and then never again. Besides, recurring credits aren't as good as link. There is no equivalent to link for the corp.

Foxfire is something I'm playing around with now. It's a pretty good card, albeit often a dead draw. Sort of the equivalent of Plascrete Carapace for runners.

Unfortunately, high-link decks, while subpar in most matchups, are killers for NBN. I guess if there were an easy solution, NBN would be too powerful.
 
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Dirk Tebben
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beepers wrote:
TMI is great if you're able to put sufficient pressure on the Runner to run blind and credit-less.
Win-more.
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Nate K
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beepers wrote:
TMI is great if you're able to put sufficient pressure on the Runner to run blind and credit-less.
What I think you mean is that it's great in the early game. In the mid- and late-game you'll rarely manage to rez it, sadly. But if you can plop it onto HQ and rez it against Gabe in the first turn or two, hilarity ensues as the runner digs for a barrier breaker or Sneakdoor Beta.
 
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Stan Adecla
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stillnotking wrote:
beepers wrote:
TMI is great if you're able to put sufficient pressure on the Runner to run blind and credit-less.
Win-more.
Yes please.

To articulate, you've got to have that NBN anti-economy to help TMI. TMI on a remote/R&D after a Closed Accounts is amazing. But you've got to be able to tag and have it stick.

You don't have Closed Accounts, and your only taxing ice is Data Raven and Pop-up Window. You need a way to constantly control the player's economy, and ETR subroutines don't do that. Once it comes time for TMI to be rezzed, either it'll be early in the game and maybe able to happen during a near ineffectual part of the game unless you opened with a Melange or agenda, the runner will be sitting on a rig and not really give a damn, or they'll have the pocket money/tricks to harass it.

(Destruct1's Ice description post is nearly spot-on. I disagree with Caduceus being taxing ice because both subroutines pretty much say, "Don't run here unless you can afford it." Shadow is a better example because there is no chance of the run ending. It's way more inviting, and the money isn't dependent on a trace.)
 
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Bryan Blumklotz
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Some things to think about from the Never Advance crowd.

Your Psychographics engine is a little thin. You don't have anyway to keep applying tag pressure unless you score the lone RDP agenda and even then it will be moot if the runner has 3 to 4 link.

As far as I can see the only tag punishment you got besides Psycho is Private Security Force (PSF) and you only have one of those. Basically your tags have no teeth.

The question you have to ask is, have I ever scored an agenda with Psycho that was a deceive to my win (overclocked Beale for example or scoring RDP or PSF out of hand). If the answer is no, then you need to examine your Psycho strategy. If the answer is yes has it been a one off or is a consistent win condition for the card commitment to your deck.

If you are going all in on Psycho, run 3 of them and put Bernice Mai and ChiLo in your deck. Closed accounts will augment your tag punishment arsenal.

I would dump the Beanstalks in favor of at least 2 Chums and a card to be named later (most likely a 1 influence ICE). The chums will help you when someone Femme's one of your Tollbooths. It can add life to Caduceus.

Let's talk agendas. Your deck is a Fast Advance deck. Does this mean you are scoring your agendas from hand? Or are you actually talking about a Rush Deck where you get your ICE out quick and start scoring ASAP? If its the former Restructured Data Pool (RDP) is really a millstone around your neck. You should not be running a 5/3 agenda in a fast advance deck.

There could be a justification for a rush deck where you are putting out a card for a turn or more with Red Herrings and Ash.

Anyway, those are the questions and suggestions I have.

 
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Aaron Smith
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Saracenus wrote:
Some things to think about from the Never Advance crowd.

Your Psychographics engine is a little thin. You don't have anyway to keep applying tag pressure unless you score the lone RDP agenda and even then it will be moot if the runner has 3 to 4 link.

As far as I can see the only tag punishment you got besides Psycho is Private Security Force (PSF) and you only have one of those. Basically your tags have no teeth.

The question you have to ask is, have I ever scored an agenda with Psycho that was a deceive to my win (overclocked Beale for example or scoring RDP or PSF out of hand). If the answer is no, then you need to examine your Psycho strategy. If the answer is yes has it been a one off or is a consistent win condition for the card commitment to your deck.

If you are going all in on Psycho, run 3 of them and put Bernice Mai and ChiLo in your deck. Closed accounts will augment your tag punishment arsenal.

I would dump the Beanstalks in favor of at least 2 Chums and a card to be named later (most likely a 1 influence ICE). The chums will help you when someone Femme's one of your Tollbooths. It can add life to Caduceus.

Let's talk agendas. Your deck is a Fast Advance deck. Does this mean you are scoring your agendas from hand? Or are you actually talking about a Rush Deck where you get your ICE out quick and start scoring ASAP? If its the former Restructured Data Pool (RDP) is really a millstone around your neck. You should not be running a 5/3 agenda in a fast advance deck.

There could be a justification for a rush deck where you are putting out a card for a turn or more with Red Herrings and Ash.

Anyway, those are the questions and suggestions I have.

I've been referring to this as Fast Advance, but I suspect that, in practice, I tend to play it more like a Rush deck. I *want* to score agendas out of hand, but generally I end up putting a 3/2 down, then scoring it next turn. I'll generally try to put them down if I have a piece of ICE that the runner can't currently break on a remote (and hopefully something else in front of it to guard against inside job), if they're too poor to get through, or if I think Red Herrings./ASH will manage to protect it.

To be honest, although I've managed to pull off scoring an agenda with Psychographics, it *has* kind of felt like the stars aligned first. I really like the idea and the potential of that card, but it might be time to let go.

The RDP is there, quite simply, to meet my agenda total requirement. The only way I can get rid of it is if I dump some other card so I can replace it with 2 other agendas.
 
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Bryan Blumklotz
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MinisterOfPropaganda wrote:
I've been referring to this as Fast Advance, but I suspect that, in practice, I tend to play it more like a Rush deck. I *want* to score agendas out of hand, but generally I end up putting a 3/2 down, then scoring it next turn. I'll generally try to put them down if I have a piece of ICE that the runner can't currently break on a remote (and hopefully something else in front of it to guard against inside job), if they're too poor to get through, or if I think Red Herrings./ASH will manage to protect it.
This is pretty much never advance in a nutshell. The only thing you need to add is installing down MMC or some other asset or upgrade to bait them into a run draining their credits so you can put down a 3/2 or a 4/2 with SanSan the following round to score it while they restock their credit pool. A standard load out for this kind of play is:

AstroScript Pilot Program (Core) x3
Breaking News (Core) x2
Project Beale (Future Proof) x3
Private Security Force (Core) x3

I would replace the Psychos with Closed Accounts to give your tags bite against tag-me decks. You will be treating Project Beale as a 3/2 and only overclocking one if you got 2 Astroscripts scored with tokens for the win. The Private Security Force is there to provide tag punishment if they ignore the threat of your tagging ICE. This will give Data Raven more teeth.

If you really want a fast advance deck, you need to consider either biotic labor (expensive) or trick of light (needs advancable ICE). You will definitely need a third SanSan.

Never Advance decks can get away with 2 SanSans because there are multiple win scenarios beyond scoring from hand with SanSan and you will toggle into Fast Advance mode with SanSan in mid or late game. Also, figure that with Alexfrog touting the joys of SanSan that people are going to start trashing them as much as they love to trash PAD Campaign or MMC. You will probably minimize the tagging potential of this deck because its all about econ and setting up your score from hand combos.

MinisterOfPropaganda wrote:
To be honest, although I've managed to pull off scoring an agenda with Psychographics, it *has* kind of felt like the stars aligned first. I really like the idea and the potential of that card, but it might be time to let go.
You have to build around Psychographics. There needs to be multiple ways to make more than one or two tags stick otherwise it is usually a dead draw. You also need tag punishment to make it painful beyond just the Psycho because if the runner gives up on avoiding tags then they are going to run through your tagging ICE right quick. This will effect how you place ICE leading up to the tag flood.

If you build a tag flooding deck you need 3 Psychos in there and you are treating them like a tag & bag deck treats Scorched Earth. Bernice Mai, Midseason Replacement, and ChiLo are part of this kind of build (It's the kind of deck I brought to my Regional Championship).

MinisterOfPropaganda wrote:
The RDP is there, quite simply, to meet my agenda total requirement. The only way I can get rid of it is if I dump some other card so I can replace it with 2 other agendas.


See my first set of comments. You really only need to get rid of one card with the agenda example above.
 
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James 3
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my best fast advance deck in NBN runs almost no trace cards and doesnt use psychographics at all, nor does it care about tagging the runner. focus on scoring speed and thwarting successful runs via upgrades and asset econ and you dont need the trace/tag traps clogging up your plan. thats a DIFFERENT deck.
 
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Aaron Smith
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Saracenus wrote:

This is pretty much never advance in a nutshell. The only thing you need to add is installing down MMC or some other asset or upgrade to bait them into a run draining their credits so you can put down a 3/2 or a 4/2 with SanSan the following round to score it while they restock their credit pool. A standard load out for this kind of play is:

AstroScript Pilot Program (Core) x3
Breaking News (Core) x2
Project Beale (Future Proof) x3
Private Security Force (Core) x3

I would replace the Psychos with Closed Accounts to give your tags bite against tag-me decks. You will be treating Project Beale as a 3/2 and only overclocking one if you got 2 Astroscripts scored with tokens for the win. The Private Security Force is there to provide tag punishment if they ignore the threat of your tagging ICE. This will give Data Raven more teeth.

If you really want a fast advance deck, you need to consider either biotic labor (expensive) or trick of light (needs advancable ICE). You will definitely need a third SanSan.

Never Advance decks can get away with 2 SanSans because there are multiple win scenarios beyond scoring from hand with SanSan and you will toggle into Fast Advance mode with SanSan in mid or late game. Also, figure that with Alexfrog touting the joys of SanSan that people are going to start trashing them as much as they love to trash PAD Campaign or MMC. You will probably minimize the tagging potential of this deck because its all about econ and setting up your score from hand combos.

Yeah, I had read the forum posting about Never Advance and liked it. Comparing my deck list to the one listed there, I see they're remarkably similar, with the main differences being the ones you've already pointed out. I'll give it a whirl.

Thanks to everyone that responded!
 
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