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Subject: Market / Currency Bonus rss

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Stephen Paget
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This question came up in my first game. If I select production say in Iron, I have Currency but no Iron producing cities, do I still get the 'bonus' of 2 for currency? I would then in this example receive 2 iron.

The rule is: 'When choosing the action marble, iron, or gold, two extra units are taken'

We decided you get them, but if you produce nothing, they're not exactly 'extra'.
 
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Neil Carr
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We played the opposite, you only get the extra if you actually produce the specific resource.
 
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Dave Eisen
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We played you get the "extra" even if it is a bump from zero. It was really hard enough to do anything useful when I was down to one territory even with this.

The rule did not seem clear to us and I would like guidance here from the designer.
 
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Dave Kudzma
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Quote:
Example: A nation produces five marble units from a marble city with a temple and two marble cities without temple. With the progress "market place" the nation would earn six and with the progress "currency" earn seven marble units.


This example seems to point toward dependancy on the ability to actually produce the resource before the bonus is conferred.
 
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Nick Fisk
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I always lean towards "spirit of the game" and theme in these cases.

If you have a gold mine, and are technologically advanced, then you'll produce extra gold.

However ... if you don't have a gold mine, no matter how clever you are, you aren't going to produce any gold!

So I would say you don't get the bonus unless you're producing.

Plus ... If you have no blue cities, don't choose the "Iron" action



N.
 
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Richard Pardoe
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We play that market and currency are extra to the normal production from an iron (or gold or marble) city. So one needs to have the producing city to get the base of 1 before getting the extra.

The trouble I have with getting 2 extra with no iron cities - why stop at just one non-iron city. Why not just rules lawyer yourself into getting +2 iron from every city you currently possess.

But as I scan the rules, I begin to wonder if I have misplayed the bonus. We had played it as a per city bonus. But I can also see where the bonus is "in toto" - in other words - when you calculate the total production from your cities and then add either 1 (market) or 2 (currency) to that grand total. I am beginning to convince myself that the "in total" interpretation is correct as the other know-how actions clearly state, each legion, galley, city for the other developments. Only Market and Currency do not state "each city".

Any pointers to a judgement which interpretation is correct? Per city? In total?
 
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Nick Fisk
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Quote:
Any pointers to a judgement which interpretation is correct? Per city? In total?


It's definitely in total.

If your cities are producing 8 gold all told, you get 9 if you're at the first level, or 10 at the second.

The example in the rules does explain this bit!

N.

 
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Johan L
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Moviebuffs wrote:
Quote:
Any pointers to a judgement which interpretation is correct? Per city? In total?


It's definitely in total.

If your cities are producing 8 gold all told, you get 9 if you're at the first level, or 10 at the second.

The example in the rules does explain this bit!

N.



Yes, this is also how Mac Gerdts explained it in Essen.
 
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Richard Pardoe
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Moviebuffs wrote:
The example in the rules does explain this bit!


blush Have cleaned my glasses and now read what I was supposed to read in that example. blush
 
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Dave Eisen
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That would be quite a powerful tech if it applied to each city.
 
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Stephen Paget
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Moviebuffs wrote:
I always lean towards "spirit of the game" and theme in these cases.

If you have a gold mine, and are technologically advanced, then you'll produce extra gold.

However ... if you don't have a gold mine, no matter how clever you are, you aren't going to produce any gold!

So I would say you don't get the bonus unless you're producing.

Plus ... If you have no blue cities, don't choose the "Iron" action



N.


I agree, the theme suggests you need to produce to get the bonus, but is it the rule ?
 
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Stephen Paget
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stephenpaget wrote:
Moviebuffs wrote:
I always lean towards "spirit of the game" and theme in these cases.

If you have a gold mine, and are technologically advanced, then you'll produce extra gold.

However ... if you don't have a gold mine, no matter how clever you are, you aren't going to produce any gold!

So I would say you don't get the bonus unless you're producing.

Plus ... If you have no blue cities, don't choose the "Iron" action



N.


I agree, the theme suggests you need to produce to get the bonus, but is it the rule ?


I would choose the action because I need Iron ! one or two legions could make all the difference. It's easy enough to play a house rule, but an official ruling would be good.
 
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Stephen Paget
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I sent a message to Mac Gerdts and he very kindly responded. Extremely quickly too. Thanks Mac. Here's what he has to say on the matter.

"Hi Steve,
first of all I have to apologize that the rules did not treat this special point
clearly enough! It is a very rare case. In our games we always give the bonus
even if no city with the item exists. I can understand the discussion on the
geek that it would be more thematic not to grant the bonus. However, in our
games we think that nations with only a few cities deserve the bonus. Otherwise
it would be too frustrating for a nation who spent a lot of gold to get the
progress. Thematically one might think of the market (or currency) as a method
of trading the stuff from whatever source. As you cannot trade with others,
market is kind of a substitute for this.
Of course you are free to make differing house rules on this, the most important
thing being that you enjoy the game!"
 
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J C Lawrence
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Moviebuffs wrote:
I always lean towards "spirit of the game" and theme in these cases.


As one of those who wouldn't know a "game spirit" if it bit him in the arse, as well as being one of those who carefully removes all traces of theme when thinking about a game, I simply noticed that all the techs are BASE+1or2. Nothing states that base can't be zero.
 
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Brian Newman
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Note that those know-hows aren't "more production from your mines"; they are market and currency. In other words, you're not producing that bonus marble; you're trading for it or buying it outright on the open market.
 
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Ken Waido
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Who am I to argue with the game's designer? But the rules say, and I have them in front of me, under Production Actions on page V:

"For each ___ (fill in the blank with either marble, iron, or gold) city a nation owns on the Game Board it receives: a single ___ (marble, iron, or gold) unit per ___ (marble, iron, or gold) city without a temple; three ___ (marble, iron, or gold) units per (marble, iron, or gold) city with a temple."

So, if a nation has 1 marble, iron, or gold city without a temple, it can produce 1 marble, iron, or gold unit for that city. If a nation has 1 marble, iron, or gold city with a temple, it can produce 3 marble, iron, or gold units for that city. The example, also on page V, makes these rules quite clear. In other words, a nation must have a city which produces marble, iron, or gold "on the Game Board" in order to produce marble, iron, or gold. Therefore, it also stands to reason that if a nation does not have a marble, iron, or gold city on the Game Board that nation can not produce marble, iron, or gold units. Basically then, the rules are: No city = No production.

Continuing, page V also states:

"The production of marble, iron and gold can be increased with the progress "market" and "currency" (see page 6 "Know-How")."

Which takes us to page VII which states:

"Earning a progress gives the nation new abilities. These are: ... Market: When choosing the actions marble, iron, or gold, one extra unit is taken. ... Currency: When choosing the actions marble, iron, or gold, two extra units are taken."

The example, on page VII, makes it clear on how to calculate production from cities without and with a temple. Again, the example requires a nation to have a marble, iron, or gold producing city in order to receive a marble, iron, or gold unit. The key word here is "extra" and the dictonary defines extra as "something beyond what is usual; additional." So if a nation has to have a city on the Game Board in order to produce a marble, iron, or gold unit (usual) a market progress is needed to acquire one extra (additional) unit. So, 1 production city + 1 market bonus = 2 units, 2 production cities + 1 market bonus = 3 units. Definately not a +1 market bonus per city, so definately not 2 production cities + 2 market bonus = 4 units; and definately not 0 production city + 1 market bonus = 1 unit.

Now the progress new abilities a nation can purchase are called "market" and "currency." Market brings in prices and the economic balancing of supply and demand. Typically then, high supply and low demand usually means lower prices and low supply and high demand means higher prices. This may help explain why a nation that has a market progress and only 1 production city for a marble, iron, or gold unit gets a 100% bonus of either marble, iron, or gold for the +1 unit (low supply against a high market demand); while a nation that has 2 production cities and a market progress gets only a 50% bonus for the +1 unit (a higher supply against the same market demand); a nation with 3 production cities ... gets only a 33% bonus for the +1 unit(an even higher supply against the same market demand); etc., etc. But, this does not explain, or justify, a nation obtaining a market bonus if it does not have a specific type of production city. I would still maintain that the rules indicate: No city = No production. And that: No city, even with a market (or currency) bonus = No production.

What has not been mentioned yet is the coin a nation gets every Game Flow turn before that nation chooses a move. The nation gets a coin, no matter what. This coin is equal to a marble, iron, or gold unit and can be subsitiuted for a specific missing required unit in a Production Action on a 1-to-1 basis. Thus, a temple cost requires 5 marble units. A nation could pay 5 marble units if it has them, or 4 marbel units and 1 coin, or 3 marble units and 2 coins, etc., to acquire a temple. Coins help protect a nation that may lose a certain type of production city. Thus, a nation that loses all of its iron production cities does not lose the capability to select the Arming move (i.e., the production of legions and galleys). That nation can just utilize coins to produce legions and galleys. Likewise, the loss of marble production cities does not mean a nation could not build temples, nor the loss of gold production cities does not mean a nation could not purchase know-how. And, coins could be used to build new cities, assuming the nation can get into a province.

I admit it would be extremely difficult for a nation that loses all but one type of production city (remember a nation can not lose its last remaining production city no matter what) to do well in the game from that point on, even if it gets a coin every turn.
 
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Daniel Corban
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Does it seem fair that an empire can have their only marble producing city conquered (through a likely very costly military attack), yet still produce two marble with a marble action?

Does it seem fair that an empire can completely ignore the marble producing areas, not spending the movements or resources to found a city, and still produce two marble with a marble action?

I have yet to play the game, but these two concerns immediately came to mind. Marble is just an easy example.
 
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Daniel Corban
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Another one of my "now that I have actually played the game" posts.

If someone owns no cities which produce a particular resource wishes to spend waste their turn producing that resource to gain a measly one or two, then they can have it! In other words, I can't imagine anyone intentionally avoiding a resource in mid-late game, so only players who are in dire straits will be in this situation.
 
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